These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on 
the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000.  A large portion 
of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list 
members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain 
from sharing this data with non list members.  When the list ended, it was 
urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it 
seemed like a good idea all around.

I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in 
some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and 
refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel 
web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, 
and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site.

Many Thanks.
Chris Davis
Moderator:  Blue Room mailing list 

Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 
CC BY-NC-ND

BLUE ROOM ARCHIVES -- VOLUME 1
1  The Town of Setnakh
2  Pariah Heresiology
3  Clan Facilities
4  Announcements
5  Sakbe Road Question
6  More Setnakh Information (link to 1)
7  Blasphemous Accelerators
8  Gods on Tekumel   (link to 2)
9  Blasphemous Accelerators Followup  (link to 7)
10 Gods on Tekumel Followup (link to 8)
11 Pariah Heresiology Reply  (link to 2)
12 More Setnakh Info, other Religions  (link to 6)
13 Pariah Heresiology, Part 2
14 Pariah Heresiology, Part 2 Reply  (link to 13)
15 Place: Kamore   Ideas on Landscape
16 Place: Kamore Response   (link to 15)
17 Place: Kamore Reply      (link to 15)
18 More on Kamore from Professor Barker  (link to 16)
19 Third Tekumel Novel
20 Salarvya Questions and Answers
21 Aliens and the Gods, and Magic
22 Aliens and the Gods, and Magic Reply
23 More on Magic and the Gods
24 Even more on Magic and the Gods
25 Some Levity
26 The Pottery of Tekumel
27 Clan houses in Cities
28 Engsvanyali Temples (and another joke)
29 The Technology of Chlen Hide
30 The Technology of Chlen Hide Reply



***************************************
//1

This conversation was a part of some communication that took place 
between Listmember Anton Dovydaitis and Professor Barker.

  1) Is there a village where the Sakbe Road splits north-east to Thraya
>    and south-eastish to Jaikolar towards the eastern edge of hex 2918,
>    and what is it's name?

On the Zocchi map, the split is in the centre of 2917, not 2918. Please check 
and tell me if I am wrong. I just looked CLOSELY at the Zocchi map with a 
magnifying glass, and I think i'm right.

Yes, the town at this juncture is named Setnakh. It is an unlovely, muddy place,
filled with ferryboats, Chlen-carts, warehouses, and goods-merchants, who make 
it noisy, dirty, crowded, and generally awful (spelled offal). Neither I nor my 
players have gone there often, but we have been through it. Bob Alberti may 
recall adventures near the place.
> 
> 2) Is there a secondary highway east from Thraya to where the Sakbe
>    Road crosses Rananga heading further east to Sokatis.  Why is this
>    obvious link in the Sake Roads missing?  Is there a village there
>    where the Sakbe crosses Rananga?

There was a Sakbe Road link there, but it was destroyed some centuries ago and 
never rebuilt -- problems like money (graft), lack of clan support, poor 
qualities of local stone (the great alluvial plain is mostly dirt and clay, down
to a depth of many feet), etc. and political squabbling have prevented the 
restoration of the Sakbe Road. The secondary road is pretty good, except in the 
worst of the rainy season.

Another of our regular players, Lord Sanjesh hiKirisaya (Keith Dalluhn) will 
have fond memories of this part of the Empire.

Oh, you asked about products sent by this route. From the east: forest products 
(wood, pitch, woven basketry), Salarvyani wines, Salarvyani cloth, copper 
ingots, Dlel-fruit, and gold; from the west: Jakallan wine, fancy glassware and 
pottery from Urmish and Katalal, Chlen-hide weapons and tools down from Katalal 
and Hauma, sea products from Jakalla itself, paper, inks, and paints, gems from 
all across Tsolyanu, agricultural products (grains, leather, etc.) -- a host of 
minor products.

Does this help? If it's too general, I could ask somebody at the Palace of the 
Realm in Jakalla to provide exact figures. It would take awhile, of course, what
with the current war.



In message <2fbe13d8.anton@anton.infoserv.com> "Anton Dovydaitis" writes:
> Dear Professor:
> 
> 	It seems that the awful village of Setnakh will likely be the
> first attempt at online collaboration.  In order to maintain authenticity,
> I would appreciate it if you could help me set some limits for us to work
> within.  To that end, I was hoping you could answer some questions:
> 
> 1) What is the population of Setnakh?

No firm estimate, but I would guess about 5-7 thousand.
> 
> 2) What religions dominate, or do most clans have no religious preference?

Hnalla, Avanthe, and Belkhanu predominate in the southeastern corner of the 
Empire.  The usual clans listed in the Sourcebook may be found, although only a 
few have permanent clanhouses in this small town: White Stone,Great Stone, Amber
Cloak (Belkhanu), Rising Sun, Green Bough, Blue Stream, Green Forest, OPen Hand,
and several more low clans. Of the "dark" clans, Black Pinnacle and Black 
Monolith come to mind.
> 
> 3) What are the most important clans there?  Are there any high clans there?

I think Might of Ganga has a commercial depot here: transhipping goods to barges
to go south and then out to supply the islands in the southern sea. Nobody else 
I recall, but several medium-high clans (see above) have small establishments 
here, mostly as way stations for their members travelling up or down river.
> 
> 4) Is there a monastary near by, and if so, what is its denomination?

A Hnalla monastery is located just a few Tsan on toward Jakalla, but it is not 
very distinguished. Also a temple of Thumis that is distinctly tatty.
> 
> 5) Are there any ruins nearby (might the area around Setnakh have been
>    a more important juncture in the past)?

Most of the older buildings of this area go back only a few hundred years. 
Anything older is buried beneath alluvial mud. There were great cities here 
during the Engsvanyali period, but with the sinking of the southern tektonic 
plates and the drowning of Ganga itself, most of these remnants were buried. A 
few buildings go back to the early days of the Second Imperium,and there are 
stories about artefacts that were saved from the floods and hidden away here and
there. No idea whether any are in Setnakh or not. All my players recalled about 
the place was the stench of dirty river water, mud, dead fish, and soggy 
laundry. They crossed over the land bridge to get from one river to the other 
here, and as I recall they didn't exactly enjoy it. 


--------------------
Chris Davis,   Moderator, The Blue Room    blueroom@prin.edu

***************************************
//2
List Member Alex Stojanovic writes:

Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts

(This is meant as a stimulus to discussion, not as an authoritative
disposition of any of these themes! - Alexander)

I an interested in disentangling the relationship between the orthodox
Engsvanyali Pantheon (Pavar's Tlomitlanyal/Tlokiriqaluyal) and the Heredox
sects centered around the Pariah Dieties (The Goddess of the Pale Bone, The
One Other, and The One Who Is). Basically, I postulate a much "closer"
connexion between the theological-mythological orthodoxy and the cthnonic
Pariah Dieties than has previously been suggested. I will further suggest
that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of
Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers'
rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the
heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleened from the worship of the Old
Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah
Dieties. It must be remembered that the complex orthodoxy relating to Aspect
Theology on Tekumel -- i.e. which God does a specific "aspect" belong to --
is largely a matter of historical, economic, and social expediency. A
Worshipper of Ksarul may claim, and have huge amounts of precedent to back
him up, that Nirisepugallukh (The Blue Shadow) is an aspect of Lord Ksarul
dating back from the Bednalljan Period. But I wonder... what if the Blue
Shadow aspect was an amalgamation of The One Other and primitive "Ksarul
Worship", just for argument's sake. What if the Blue Shadow aspect
represents a co-opting by orthodoxy (The Pavar descendents) of
faiths/beliefs/ and knowledge more appropriately attributed to one/more of
the Pariah Dieties??? The question raises itself: how did the orthodox
theologians such as Pavar "learn" about the Pariah Dieties? Answer: they
were probably worhsippers of these dieties themseleves, and were "converted
by the sword" to the "new faith"! 
What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a
situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the
One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the
mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of
Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in
the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] Although their numbers have always
been small, they have "infiltrated" the orthodox religious institutions over
the course of centuries. Guiding (by way of "small" alterations in the
rituals and beliefs of these faiths, assassination, intrigue, and cunning)
the orthodox religions to "move" more toward the "True Faith" (in their
eyes). The wolf in the center of the fold! Much of Tekumel, from my
perspective, is focused around that sort of imbricated intrigue -- a
volatile and unstable view even more than the standard "Secret Societies"
(like the Refulgent Blue Curtain Society (Ksarul), or the Order of Argent
(Chegarra)). The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes,
only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could
be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane!  

I know what you're thinking -- Christ -- where is he getting this rubbish!
Everybody "knows" that Tekumel's dieties are "really" just superpowerful
beings way beyond their worshippers on the cosmic power scale! It's
"madness" to speculate of their motives! Where is this "abstruse"
theological meandering going! The Scrolls of Pavar "clearly" state this
(look at the Sourcebook for references, or the Book of Ebon Bindings)!!! I
am suggesting that a slightly "deeper" look be taken at the "historical
record" provided by Pavar and others after him...

But what if the dieties are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic
entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their
worshippers? These cookie-cutter dieties "representing" some elemental
attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge,
apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting. 

[Slight rant: The ethnologist George Dumezeil, in his classical study,
Mitra/Varuna, showed the historical / transformation/ development/
assimilation process underlying much of what we call our "modern" faiths. He
found a mythological matrix, based on the Indo-Iranian Dieities of Mitra and
Varuna -- which was applied, mutated, transformed beyond recognition, until
you got something like St. Valentine's Day arising out of the cthonic
"Underworld rituals" of the Lupercalia! Talk about a twisted and complex
incubation of new "religious"/societal forms.] 

My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an
"outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities.
Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated
over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate
Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive APriah cults have always been in the
"center" of Tekumelyani socieities - guiding the course of events like
puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special"
knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for
the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic
frenzy of liberation and obliteration.

But where would one look to find support for such a theory. Let's start with
Ksarul, my favorite Engsvanyali diety. I have always found the "Story" of
Lord Ksarul's Banishment/Imprisonment, as recounted in the classical sources
(Lament to the Wheel of Black - Engsvanyali Recension), suspiciously like a
piece of "theological revisionism". Just as the advent of Classical Islam
brought about a recasting of more cthonic myths and beliefs (Djinns, Demons,
etc.) in light of the "approved party line", perhaps a similar curent
overtook the Pariah Dieities. Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle
of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of
myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah
Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern
"name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished",
both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who
"imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!)
Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah
Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled"
upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? Enquiring minds
whant to know! I suggest that the banishment/imprisonment/return pattern of
Ksarul is a prolepsis (foretelling) of the "return of the Pariah Dieties" --
an impending big Shootout at the OK Corral/Gotterdammerung which will (on a
mythological/symbolic level) represent a closure/repetition of the "Divine
Time". The Twilight/Doom of the Gods fortold in a legend which, ostensibly,
is about a distant episode in Tekumel's "mythic" past in the Battle of
Dormoron Plain. I really like that!

Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search
Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the
nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent
generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological  consolidation.
That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to
maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted
themselves over the next centuries? The One Oher did "help" to vanquish
Ksarul -- "why" he did so remains a considerable point of dispute. But then,
as sources relate, the worship of this diety was proscribed, the worshippers
slaughtered, the temples razed, and all records striken.. Or were they? The
Livyani have always been "secretive" about their faith on the Shadows Gods.
What secrets really "lurk" in the Secret City of Dlash -- and what about
that city in Livyanu NAMED AFTER A SECRET ARGOT OF THE PARIAH DIETIES --
SUNUZ??? Mere phonological coincidence? I don't think so!

My interest in the Pariah Dieties arose out some research and development of
the "languages" of these heretical sects/religions (Zna'ye, Sunuz, Ai Che).
I have always maintained that Duruob is linguistically related to Sunuz --
again the Livyani connection! How about Llyani -- which was codified and
used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were
transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar
sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable! I think
modern Tekumelyani society is a "bit too accomodating" of Pavar's theology.
What did Pavar base his insights on? The Sourcebook only mentions that he
made contact with several more of the "Gods" (We have only historical
tradition to prove that the Names/Entities mentioned in the Scrolls refer to
the modern pantheon!) As in classical Hellenistic society, with its ten or
so diffrent "Zeus" figures (they later got amalgamated into one
"Super-Zeus"), Pavar's writing should be taken with a bit of
historical/ethnological distrust. OK - you can summon the "Gods" or their
minions -- but what does that prove about their identity? Nothing. I know
several will point out the immense disinterest on Modern Tekumelyani to
engage in theological disputation, but that is really beside the point. I am
interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in
Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the
"consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all,
all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative
underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over
four years!

I would be interested in hearing other viewpoints on this. Especially
dissenters who feel my slant of things is without a leg to stand on! 
I am in the process of compiling a Lexicographical Dictionary on the
Heretical Sects of the Pariah and Engnsvanyali Dieties -- entitled Tipika
Hereziark'a (Book of the Heresiarchs). It will include linguistic,
historical/anecdotal, biographical, and theological information on this
intersection of pariah/heretical theology and the more ritualized and
hypostatic Engsvanyali theology as received by the modern inhabitants of
Tekumel. I hope that this triggers some minute amount of discussion - since
Tekumel's theology, history, and (most of all) linguistics are what have
fascinated me since 1983 (when I was fifteen).

Regards,

Alexander Stojanovic

--
[Moderators Note:  Whew!!!  Way to go Alex!  Nothing like a bit of nice  ]
[dinner conversation.  ;)                                                ]

Chris Davis,  Moderator,  The Blue Room   blueroom@prin.edu


***************************************
//3

Professor Barker answers...
>From: "Anton Dovydaitis" <anton@anton.infoserv.com>
>
>We should all know about clanhouses, but what about other clan
>facilities?  For example, we now know that the Might of Ganga,
>a Very High clan, has transhipping facilities in the awful
>town of Setnakh.  How is this done?  Is there a clanhouse there?
>Just a warehouse, with a few clan members residing?

There are clan agents who handle grain, cloth, Salarvyani goods, salted meat, 
pottery, glassware, metalwork, etc. Some of these persons handle more than one 
type of commodity, others deal with 5-6 items. Whenever a load comes into the 
warehouse (by boat, by chlen-cart, by slave caffle), the dealers send letters to
the relevant forwarders. Might of Ganga does have a small house in Setnakh -- 
nothing big, but better than some other higher clans, which have none and must 
rely upon agents.
>
>In general, how do clans operate in cities that they do not have
>a major presence?  Do their "poorer" cousins exist to serve their
>ealthier brethren, providing transhipping, warehousing, guest
>accomodations?  On the one hand, I can't imagine The Might of Ganga
>aintaining a suitable clanhouse in Setnakh, but on the other, I can't
>imagine them sleeping in a hovel either.

Clans are often allied to other clans: Golden Sunburst to White Stone to Green 
ough, etc. Arrangements are made to pay for services back and forth: so much 
grain for so many loads of tooled leather, so much dried river fish for so many 
urns of oil, etc. When people travel, they usually inquire about sleeping, etc. 
facilities along the way. Their clans will then make arrangements in advance: 
send a writ to a clanhouse in Setnakh, for example, saying that "Our excellent 
brother so-and-so will be arriving in Setnakh on the 20th of Didom; can you 
provide him with accommodations? Or fix him up with an acceptable equivlanet?" 
Anybody too poor or humble to deserve this treatment must stay in whatever shop 
or dwelling that will have him/her. There are brothels in the town, and one can 
always arrange to stay in them -- with or without the "extras."

Thus, let's suppose a member of Golden Sunburst has to break his journey in 
Setnakh. His options are: get his clan to arrange in advance for him to stay in 
one of the better clanhouses in the town; go there and take his chances knocking
on doors; write to his clan's business agent or intermediary and get that person
to make arrangements; write to the local mayor (Mraduharetokoi); he can take his
own servants, tents, and equipment and cook along the way, stopping on the 
platforms at the base of certain Sakbe Road towers; or -- if he is so minded -- 
he can stop at one of the numerous brothels and relax! Since there are no "inns"
or "hotels" (particularly in a little place like Setnakh) these are his only 
options. 
> 
>Are the ranks of clans always fixed relative to each other in terms
>of local power?  For example, if The Might of Ganga is the highest
>clan in Setnakh, do they dominate the local politics or economy?
>r are sometimes lower ranked clans effectively in a better political
>or economic position than theoritically higher clans due to the local
>situation.

No to your first question. A very high clan always gets respect and deference, 
but it may not dominate the local rconomy at all. Yes, thus, to your second 
supposition: a lower clan, like "Ewer of Gold Outpouring," for business reasons 
happens to be powerful in Setnakh. Its members will alwyas show respect to 
members of clans higher than itself, but when it comes to business, it is not 
going to be pushed aside. In time, its leaders hope to thrust their clan right 
up into the ranks of the "Very High" clans by sheer economic pressure. There 
are lots of intrigues and clever little plots...

>More generally, how do clanhouses in different cities, but say, along
>the same trade route (so visits are frequent) interact?

With courtesy, always basic in the Five Empires. Respect and deference to 
superiors, courtesy to equals, condescension to inferiors -- and rudeness to any
who are outside of the chain. The balance is delicate, and it is best that 
foreigners allow some Tsolyani friend or host to deal for them until they get 
used to it. Most of my player characters now understand the "ladder" and act 
quite decorously. A few still do not. Once in awhile somebody reacts TOO 
deferentially:  e.g. a character addresses a humble peasant as "my lord," much 
to the latter's puzzlement and suspicion. Oh well... 

It's always interesting.


Chris Davis   Moderator, The Blue Room     blueroom@prin.edu

***************************************
//4
Greetings!  I am writing to make a few announcements.  First, as of right
now, we have 26 members.  Not too bad.  I expect more memberships as time
passes, since I haven't heard from the far reaches of the globe yet, like
Australia, etc.  

In case you didn't know, there is an FTP site, in addition to other(s) that 
already exist, set up here, called nexus.prin.edu.  Currently there are
only some graphics on the site.  One of which, is a map of the town of 
Setnakh, a village that has been the subject of much conversation, recently.

There will soon be some reprints of Professor Barker's written works.  As I 
am hand typing these in, they will appear slowly, but surely.  If anyone 
wants to help, I would be happy to take submissions.  The net books will also 
be housed here.  We are working on the first net book, and things appear to 
be moving forward.

Be sure to check out the graphics directory of the ftp site, for a new,
not seen by most of us (I almost keeled over in my chair when I saw it
the first time a few weeks ago), full color picture of a Swamp Folk merchant
vessel being attacked by Shanu'u.  It is gorgeous!

Chris
--
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

***************************************
//5
A question from Anton to Professor Barker.

>I have a question: how do you get to the other side of a Sakbe Road?
>Are there gates, or can you only cross at the Guard Towers?
>What happens when two Sakbe Roads meet?

The Sakbe Roads are solid masonry, except in such places as the swamps around 
Purdimal, where they are carried on balks of timber. They are thus like the 
Great Wall of China, with the broadest level usually facing inward, toward the 
Empire, and the highest (the third) facing outward towards any imagined foe. At 
intervals there are ponderous towers, usually with entrances and staircases, so 
that one can go up or down from level to level. Many of these towers also have 
exits out onto a platform at the base of the tower, where travellers can stay, 
buy provisions, etc. Some of these platforms also have gateways through the 
wall, so that chlen-carts, travellers, slave caravans, etc. can move from one 
side of the great wall to the other. At Setnakh there is a gate in the southern 
wall tower that permits carts, etc. to unload their cargoes onto wharves where 
ferries can take them north to the hinterlands across the river -- and vice-
versa. To the west, off the map, there is a ramp that allows chlen-carts access 
to the Sakbe Road from the south, and another "down-ramp" on the north side. 
These are protected with bastions, etc. since this region lies close to the 
swamps of the mad Hlutrgu. There are watchtowers and heavier fortifications for 
this purpose all along the road to Jaikalor, too.

Where two Sakbe Roads meet there are usually larger, stronger, and more complex 
fortifications, gates, ramps, etc. so that traffic can move appropriately.

--------
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

***************************************
//6

This is comprised of questions from Anton to Professor Barker, and an add-on, 
that was sent with the map of Setnakh to be included on our ftp site, 
nexus.prin.edu from Professor Barker.  The map is there, along with the 
information in this message. (Remember, the ftp site is open from 5:00 PM to 
7:00 AM every business night and all day weekends, sorry, it is my work PC.)

>1) The Clan of the Ewer of Gold Outpuring: where do THEY fit in Setnakh?
>   Do they handle or attempt to handle transhipping for other clans?
>   What is their status and religious afilliations?

This clan is rather local in the southeast. It is a medium-medium clan, with a 
preponderance of members in the sects of Avanthe, Hnalla, Thumis, and their 
cohorts, but with some Hru'u, Ksarul, and Vimuhla members also. Maybe even a few
Sarku people, though I hasve never heard of any. Belkhanu members are rare near 
Setnakh but are common nearer to Thraya. Yes, it handles transhipping along the 
Sakbe Roads and the rivers in its area, charging small percentages on loads 
transferred from one mode of transport to another: ship to chlen-carts, ship to 
slaves, slaves to carts, etc. It arranges for loading and unloading, guarding, 
storing, etc. of cargoes. 

>2) How far from the river and the Sakbe Roads is Setnakh?
>   Is it right where they all meet?

The latter. The Sakbe Road dips southward from the west, then splits, with one 
branch going along the riverbank to the northeast, and a second branch heading 
southeast to the Equnoyel River and on to Jaikalor. Setnakh is located in the 
northern angle of this three-way juncture, on the riverbank, with wharves and 
docks for ferries over to the secondary roads and fertile plains to the north. 
If you manage to download the map I sent the Blue Room, you can see what I mean.

>3) An imperial presence in Setnakh due the joining of the Sakbe Roads there.
>   What is that like?

Not much of a presence. The Imperium is represented by a town guard a few Road 
Guards, who live in the Sakbe Road towers. There is a Palace of the Realm 
building, but it is pretty small and unimportant. The clans administer the place
with some efficiency -- business -- and there are no reasons for a big Palace of
the Priesthoods, Palace of Foreign Lands, or Palace of Everglorious War. Those 
are for bigger cities.

>4) Who is administrates Setnahk, and what is their clan?

The mayor of Setnakh (Mraduharetokoi) is a pleasant old man -- I have detailed 
his name, clan, and general personality in another letter to the Blue Room. 

[Moderator's Note:  That message appears below this one.                  ]

You'll like him, though his shrewish wife is always a problem at a party. I can 
fill in other clan memberships and office-bearers as needed. Mostly these people
are petty bureaucrats, working hard to fulfill their Skeins as cogs in the great
machine. Some of them are interesting, some are dull -- enough for lots of 
intrigues and adventures. (And then there are stories of the great ancient 
capital city of Purdanim buried 400 feet down in the alluvial mud a hundred Tsan
or more directly north of Setnakh ...)

>I notice that most of the clans I thought would be here have no religious
>affiliation.  What does that mean, how does that work?  If the clan does
>not provide guidance, how is one's choice made?  Do lineages adhere to
>religions?  Are members of clans with no religious affiliation more
>moderate in their beliefs?

Religious affiliation in a little town like Setnakh is coincidental, or 
dependent upon local history. This means little since each member of every clan 
has SOME religion or other. (Being an atheist on Tekumel is demonstrably not 
very smart...) Hence, even if one's clan is not religiously fixed, one's own 
lineage -- or one's personal beliefs -- will usually be so. Members of 
"religiously fixated" clans, too, may not always belong to the sect of their 
clan -- a person may be Red Sun and not be Vimuhla, for example, but Avanthe or 
Hnalla or Thumis! This leads to some prejudice and unpleasantry, especially in 
the really "hard-core" clans (e.g. Copper Door, Vriddi), but it is possible and 
is often found. A child generally chooses a religion when growing up, and this 
sometimes differs from the preferences of his lineage and his direct family. It 
happenes even on this world: a child of devout Protestant Christian parents may 
decide to become Greek Orthodox, a Hindu, etc., for purely personal reasons. 
Same on Tekumel.

Religious "moderation" is not concomitant with a clan's lack of sectarian 
affiliation. It just means that the clan, as a whole, has no single religious 
belief or sectarian membership. A Sarku worshipper who belongs to Golden Bough, 
by some quirk of fate and family history, may be just as devoted to his wormy 
deity as any member of Open Sepulchre. 

Clans, lineages, and families all share in the "guidance" of a child and may try
to steer him/her into a particular sect. Some are just stubborn, however, while 
others claim to know better. It is no easier on Tekumel than it is on Earth.



[Moderator's note:  This marks a comment by Professor Barker about the  ]
[map of Setnakh he sent for inclusion on our ftp site.  Be sure to check]
[it out.                                                                ]

There is lots more to say about Setnakh -- e.g. the great Chlen barns and 
"transient" slave pens (for travelling caravans) are NOT in the town itself but 
off the map to the west, along the top of the rise that lies between the Rananga
and Equnoyel Rivers. There are few clanhouses out there (due to the stench), 
e.g. those concerned with trnasport: Woven Whip (leather and Chlen-hide) and 
Turning Wheel (transport). Round Rock has small farms/clanhouses all around the 
rural parts of this region. Wicker Image and Black Mat (two very low clans) see 
to the removal of offal from the town -- disposal into the river is not allowed,
and garbage is taken out to be spread onto the fields in heavy carts. 

The Rananga here is about 500 feet wide in flood season (spring and early 
summer); it goes down to a mere 20-50 feet in the hottest months of summer and 
averages about 200 feet wide in the rest of the year, with depths ranging from 
20 feet to only 5 or 6 -- not navigable by any but flat-bottomed skiffs. The 
land slopes away to the north, and hence the floods widen the river to the north
of the town and do not reach up into the town very often. The town itself sits 
on a steep bank (reinforced with dikes) of aout 15-18 feet in height. Floods do 
occur, of course, and everybody then takes the Sakbe roads to higher ground -- 
the region between the two rivers rises to elevations of 50-100 feet above sea-
level, and there are some pretty villas and farms up there.

The present Mraduharetokoi (Mayor) of Setnakh is a pleasant old bureaucrat: 
Miyesu hiMayka, of the Amber Cloak Clan. He's about 55, stout, affable, bald,  
smooth faced and beardless as a baby, and worships Lord Qon. He had hoped for 
promotion to bigger and better posts, but he is neither very smart nor well-
connected. He spends his days in the Palace of the Realm (see the map, upper 
left side), playing Den-den with his cronies, collecting bribes, and keeping the
town's ragged little band of bureaucrats together. He has quarters near the 
Palace of the Realm, in the Administrative Building there, and his two wives and
6 kids are a terror to his staff of 5 scribes and 3 servants. He has a "police 
force" of 20 city guards who live here and there abbout the town. This is 
reinforced by 50 Imperial road guards, who mostly live in the three Sakbe Road 
towers shown on the map. The Captain of these guards is one of Miyesu's friends,
a short, wiry-haired, bandy-legged officer named Bolon hiSiranul, from the 
southern coast near Jakalla. He is also a Qon worshipper.

I can supply the names and details of other residents of Setnakh if needed.

--
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

***************************************
//7

[Moderator's Note:  Tekunu (Alan) writes...]

This is from the Onchash Chairon Module I am working on for Dr. Barker:

Accelerators
 Fifteen hundred years ago a generation of shamans migrated to the temples of
Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe from the uncivilized portions of western and
central Salarvya and also from the then primitive areas of Tsolyanu.
 Although this movement represented a major migration of shamans, a few years
after their arrival a smaller group of shamans disgruntled at the temples of
Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe detached themselves and went to the Temple of
Thumis.  Within twenty years most of the shaman left the temples where they
were learning and returned to their native villages.
 Each of the temples that the shamans studied at helped contributed to the
shamans knowledge. Avanthe was similar to the totemistic principles of the
magicorelirious obligations and helped to sharpen their perception of the
real world.  Belkhanu gave them the ability to explore in detail the spirit
world.  Thumis allowed them to record and pass on information accurately.
 And last, the Ksarul proteges learned a system of magical squares and
numerology to set tablets of common understanding.
 Upon their return it was generally discovered that an imperfect transfer of
knowledge had taken place from the four temples and the shamans.  Avanthe
worship was close enough to their own tribal knowledge that it was absorbed.
 Belkhanu was used as secret knowledge for the spirit traveller and became a
hidden ritual of the shamans.  Information from the temple of Thumis was
maintained at a higher level than the other because it was brought back
written on the tablets.  Ksarul worship provided the foundation of magic
squares and numerology that would prove useful later in the formation of
sidils for the use in accelerator magic.
 When the shamans returned to their tribes they found that they were no
longer able to integrate.  They were not truly part of that culture and yet
they were not truly Tsolyani either. Because of the changes in themselves and
their perspective, for the most part they chose to live outside of their
villages as hermits.  They lived solitary lives and were usually fixed to one
location.  Through the use of the spirit souls they would then explore these
areas and determine the exact makeup of the component pieces of that area.
 It was after this stage in the evolution of these shamans that the great
schism started.  The shamans began to polarize into two groups that had
conflicting views of how the knowledge that they had learned was to be used.
 The larger group was called the Escorts of Germination (Germinators) and
they were fundamentally against interference and intervention in natural
processes and also held to the tenet of simply standing aside, watching,
observing and guarding against unnatural intervention their surroundings.
Nonintervention was their strict policy.   The other, smaller group was
called The Accelerators and they were striving for the use of the powers they
had learned which could accelerate the natural processes.  To this end they
felt intervention was necessary in the natural process.  
 With such a disparate conflict of fundamental goals, the two groups split
and the Accelerators were driven from the community. The Accelerators went to
the cities and hired out as mercenary wizards.  Due to the different nature
of their magic, they were highly successful.  At this point Germinators began
a campaign of discredit against the Accelerators.  Due to their efforts and
with the aide of the temples who also feared the Accelerators, the general
populace began to fear the Accelerators.  The Accelerators were termed
blasphemous. Nobles who hired them found they would have unrest on their
hands, the temples would shun them and they would face sanctions, so
subsequently they stopped hiring Accelerators.
 This persecution soon turned into open war between the Accelerators and the
Germinators.  Soon the conflict became more of a 'witch hunt' with the
Germinators searching for the Accelerators and the Accelerators running and
hiding.  The Accelerators before they were totally exterminated were
contacted by a certain wizard named Matallja. (A member of the College of
Wizards).  He required their services to help straighten out the
Unstraightened City.
 The Unstraightened City is apparently laid out in orderly blocks. Once
within the city, the blocks lead in every direction. Beneath the block are
large sigils.  These sigils are unstraightened, hence the disorder.  The
sigils are larger versions of the sigils on the Onchash Chaironi. (Onchash
Chairon is in the Southern Continent and I have about a 50 page Source Book
that I am working on).  If straightened the sigils could provide unlimited
power.
  The Accelerators wish to protect the Crater of the Unstraightened City
because it is through the city that the interplaner power gets through to
Tekemul.  With control of the Unstraightened City the Accelerators hope to
build up power to bring about changes on Tekemul.  This will be affected by
the guiding of the universe of Tekemul through to planes of vast power.
Although this is really Metallja's goal, the Accelerators have also taken up
the cause.  Arrayed against them are powerful enemies. Due to the nature of
the Unstraightened City, the Germinators wish to have it removed from this
plane.  The deities of Pavar do not look kindly upon their actions.  The
Silver Suits (powerful creatures that wear some sort of power armor.  They
are almost unstopable,  have powerful technological weaponry, impervious to
magic and are relentless in their pursuit through the plains once they decide
to get you) wish to stop them, along with every creature that exists on
multiple planes as they could no longer exist if Metallja is successful.
  The College of Wizards has remained neutral except for Metallja.
 With the help of Metallja the Accelerators became the secret ruling elite of
the City of the Clanless.  Outside of a few major strongholds, such as the
City of the Clanless, Onchash Chairon and the Unstraightened City, the
Accelerators function only in small groups or singly.  The Germinators have
several important enclaves of which Baiyarsha is one.  There is also a hidden
base of the Germinators somewhere in the northern hemisphere.  The
Germinators have come to Onchash Chairon several times and have been
defeated. The struggle is still very active.   Basic screening,
indoctrination and training is conducted at the City of the Clanless.  Trips
are often taken to other far away cities on Tekumel because they are usually
a ganglia of nexus points and the like.  The City of Glass was just one spot
among many that we travelled to.  I imagine we were there to go somewhere
else, or to escape Silver Suits or something like that.  As to Mihalli, you
usually find them in these areas, because they do exist simultaneously on
several planes at the same time.
 There is also a rumour of the Mighty Fortress, a legend that states that
there is a fortress out of space and time that is occupied by Accelerators.
 There is no bridge to get there.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

//8
[Moderator's Note:  Mike from across the pond writes in response to Alex's]
[message (#2) covering Pariah Heresiology                                 ]

Bear in mind, if you are writing 'revisionist' Tekumel history, that several
factors exist on the Professor's world that do not apply on the so-called real
world.

Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and 
verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all 
the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they 
worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an
impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. These are objective
facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. 

All this tends to clamp down on human urges to syncreatism. 

That said the people of Tekumel can only see those parts of the trans-
dimensional beings they worship which mortal minds can appreciate and perceive.
There may be aspects of these beings that Tekumel never sees. And just as the
Tsolyani can't rewrite the nature of these beings they can't rewrite the 
instincts and social urges of their mortal followers. To realise their ends 
(whatever they may be) they have to use the mortal minds and purposes of their
followers. So we might speculate that Avanthe has little or no real interest in
agriculture except as it reflects a stable set of spiritual values. (Or maybe
she doesn't give a toss about spiritual values and the whole Temple is a vast
conspiracy to produce more animal waste products: what do I know about the 
motivations of gods?)

But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty gods and
cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is indeed likely
to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may be.....

-- 
Mike Cule


-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

//9
[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker adds to Tekunu's message...]
> 
>This is from the Onchash Chairon Module I am working on for Dr. Barker:
>Accelerators Fifteen hundred years ago a generation of shamans migrated to 
>the temples of Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe from the uncivilized portions 
>of western and central Salarvya and also from the then primitive areas of 
>Tsolyanu. Although this movement represented a major migration of shamans, 
>a few years after their arrival a smaller group of shamans disgruntled at the 
>temples of Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe detached themselves and went to the 
>Temple of Thumis.  Within twenty years most of the shaman left the temples 
>where they were learning and returned to their native villages.

This is all quite factual, though seen through the intervening mists of history.
In reality, the shamans of the eastern lands had been migrating slowly for many 
centuries before this. The migrations described here were connected with the 
schism that brought about the Standing Alone of the Goddess: the establishment 
of the Temple of Lady Shiringgayi as the single major aspect of BOTH Avanthe and
Dlamelish in the East.

>Each of the temples that the shamans studied at helped contributed to the
>shamans knowledge. Avanthe was similar to the totemistic principles of the
>magicorelirious obligations and helped to sharpen their perception of the
>real world.  Belkhanu gave them the ability to explore in detail the spirit
>world.  Thumis allowed them to record and pass on information accurately.
>And last, the Ksarul proteges learned a system of magical squares and
>numerology to set tablets of common understanding.
>Upon their return it was generally discovered that an imperfect transfer of
>knowledge had taken place from the four temples and the shamans.  Avanthe
>worship was close enough to their own tribal knowledge that it was absorbed.
>Belkhanu was used as secret knowledge for the spirit traveller and became a
>hidden ritual of the shamans.  Information from the temple of Thumis was
>maintained at a higher level than the other because it was brought back
>written on the tablets.  Ksarul worship provided the foundation of magic
>squares and numerology that would prove useful later in the formation of
>sigils for the use in accelerator magic.

All essentially correct. The use of "sigils" in magic is an ancient practice, 
dating back to Sunuz and Zna'ye texts used along the southern coasts as 
sorcerous guides for the sects of the Pariah Deities. These texts are largely 
lost and gone now.

>When the shamans returned to their tribes they found that they were no
>longer able to integrate.  They were not truly part of that culture and yet
>they were not truly Tsolyani [or Salarvyani] either. Because of the changes
>in themselves and their perspective, for the most part they chose to live 
>outside of their villages as hermits.  They lived solitary lives and were 
>usually fixed to one location.  Through the use of the spirit souls they 
>would then explore these areas and determine the exact makeup of the 
>component pieces of that area.

>It was after this stage in the evolution of these shamans that the great
>schism started.  The shamans began to polarize into two groups that had
>conflicting views of how the knowledge that they had learned was to be used.
>The larger group was called the Escorts of Germination (Germinators) and
>they were fundamentally against interference and intervention in natural
>processes and also held to the tenet of simply standing aside, watching,
>observing and guarding against unnatural intervention their surroundings.
>Nonintervention was their strict policy.   The other, smaller group was
>called The Accelerators and they were striving for the use of the powers they
>had learned which could accelerate the natural processes.  To this end they
>felt intervention was necessary in the natural process.

>With such a disparate conflict of fundamental goals, the two groups split
>and the Accelerators were driven from the community. The Accelerators went to
>the cities and hired out as mercenary wizards.  Due to the different nature
>of their magic, they were highly successful.  At this point Germinators began
>a campaign of discredit against the Accelerators.  Due to their efforts and
>with the aid of the temples who also feared the Accelerators, the general
>populace began to fear the Accelerators.  The Accelerators were termed
>blasphemous. Nobles who hired them found they would have unrest on their
>hands, the temples would shun them and they would face sanctions, so
>subsequently they stopped hiring Accelerators.

All true. The Accelerators were hounded and persecuted. This was not a pleasant 
period on Tekumel. The great Engsvanyali Empire had crumbled, and the chaotic 
political situation allowed for the growth of the clans and military forces that
brought about the Second Imperium. In Tsolyanu this was the period of the civil 
war that occurred after the mysterious and horrid death of Emperor Nriga 
Gagchike "The Spider" (ruled 984-101 A.S.). In Salarvya the local nobility of 
the cities was similarly fragmented, paranoid, and terrified of "secret 
sorceries" of the Shamans of the Forests.

>This persecution soon turned into open war between the Accelerators and the
>Germinators.  Soon the conflict became more of a 'witch hunt' with the
>Germinators searching for the Accelerators and the Accelerators running and
>hiding.  The Accelerators before they were totally exterminated were
>contacted by a certain wizard named Metallja. (A member of the College of
>Wizards).  He required their services to help straighten out the
>Unstraightened City.

The spelling of his name is M_e_tallja, not Matallja. Otherwise this is correct.
[Moderator's note:  Oops, I missed the first one!  Sorry.  He spelled it   ]
[correctly in subsequent paragraphs.                                       ]
His antecedents and early history are the subjects of legend and also of certain
epic poems that can only be purely mythological. He is said to have left 
Salarvya to travel through the deserts of the Plains of Glass to the 
Unstraightened City. All of this requires a couple of books by itself!

>The Unstraightened City is apparently laid out in orderly blocks. Once
>within the city, the blocks lead in every direction. Beneath the block are
>large sigils.  These sigils are unstraightened, hence the disorder.  The
>sigils are larger versions of the sigils on the Onchash Chaironi. (Onchash
>Chairon is in the Southern Continent and I have about a 50 page Source Book
>that I am working on).  If straightened the sigils could provide unlimited
>power.

Quite correct. Here, like the stem in an apple, the force fields and interplanar
distortions that rule Tekumel come together. The Planes here are twisted and 
interlocked: as one traveller said, "Your feet are going one way on one Plane, 
and your head is looking out into black space on another -- and unseen creatures
are grasping your hands and pinching your rear from several other Planes." This 
is a terribly complex and unpredictable place. Metallja stayed here long enough 
to learn as much about it as a human can know, mostly with the help of the 
Mihalli, who can live here quite comfortably.

>The Accelerators wish to protect the Crater of the Unstraightened City
>because it is through the city that the interplaner power gets through to
>Tekemul.  With control of the Unstraightened City the Accelerators hope to
>build up power to bring about changes on Tekumel.  This will be effected by
>the guiding of the universe of Tekumel through to planes of vast power.
>Although this is really Metallja's goal, the Accelerators have also taken up
>the cause.  Arrayed against them are powerful enemies. Due to the nature of
>the Unstraightened City, the Germinators wish to have it removed from this
>plane.  The deities of Pavar do not look kindly upon their actions. 

One can easily guess why.

>The Silver Suits are powerful other-planar creatures that wear some sort of 
>power armor.  They are almost unstoppable,  have powerful technological 
>weaponry, are impervious to magic and are relentless in their pursuit 
>through the plains once they decide to get you. They want to destroy the 
>Unstraightened City and stop Metallja and his little band, along with every 
>other opponnent on a myriad Planes. They can no longer exist if Metallja is 
>successful. The College of Wizards has remained neutral except for Metallja.

One of these days I will try to find the time and energy to describe the College
of Wizards at the End of Time. This is complex and is unnecessary to those who 
are satisfied to stay on "normal" Tekumel.

>With the help of Metallja the Accelerators became the secret ruling elite of
>the City of the Clanless.  Outside of a few major strongholds, such as the
>City of the Clanless, Onchash Chairon and the Unstraightened City, the
>Accelerators function only in small groups or singly.  The Germinators have
>several important enclaves of which Bayarsha is one. 

Ask players who have somehow travelled there!

>There is also a hidden base of the Germinators somewhere in the northern 
>hemisphere.  The Germinators have come to Onchash Chairon several times 
>and have been defeated. The struggle is still very active.   Basic screening, 
>indoctrination and training is conducted at the City of the Clanless.  Trips 
>are often taken to other far away cities on Tekumel because they are usually a 
>ganglia of nexus points and the like.  The City of Glass was just one spot 
>among many that we travelled to.  I imagine we were there to go somewhere 
>else, or to escape Silver Suits or something like that.  As to Mihalli, 
>you usually find them in these areas, because they do exist simultaneously 
>on several planes at the same time.

>There is also a rumour of the Mighty Fortress, a legend that states that there 
>is a fortress out of space and time that is occupied by Accelerators. There is 
>no bridge to get there.

All of this is basically true. Onchash Chairan and the Accelerators formed a 
major thrust of one of our long adventures that lasted for a couple of years of 
earth time. The complexities of Tekumel are many. I wish Lord Tekunu well in 
setting forth his description of Onchash Chairan and its strange culture. Those 
who dare to travel the deadly deserts of the equatorial continent south of 
Tsolyanu can try to reach Onchash Chairan and see for themselves. 

------
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//10
[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker responds to Mike's message.            ]

>Mike from across the pond writes in response to Alex's
>message (#2) covering Pariah Heresiology
> 
>Bear in mind, if you are writing 'revisionist' Tekumel history, that several
>factors exist on the Professor's world that do not apply on the so-called real
>world.
> 
>Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and 
>verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all 
>the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they 
>worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an
>impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. These are 
>objective facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. All
>this tends to clamp down on human urges to syncretism. 

Mike is correct. "Gods" on Tekumel may not intervene all that often in human 
life and events, but the temples SAY they do, and the temple priesthoods have 
elaborate corpora of sorcery and doctrine to make their followers believe it. 

>That said, the people of Tekumel can only see those parts of the trans-
>dimensional beings they worship which mortal minds can appreciate and 
>perceive. There may be aspects of these beings that Tekumel never sees. And 
>just as the Tsolyani can't rewrite the nature of these beings they can't 
>rewrite the instincts and social urges of their mortal followers. To realise 
>their ends (whatever they may be) they have to use the mortal minds and 
>purposes of their followers. So we might speculate that Avanthe has little 
>or no real interest in agriculture except as it reflects a stable set of 
>spiritual values. (Or maybe she doesn't give a toss about spiritual values 
>and the whole Temple is a vast conspiracy to produce more animal waste 
>products: what do I know about the motivations of gods?)

Careful, Mike -- she may be listening!
> 
>But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty gods  
>and cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is indeed 
>likely to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may be.....

"Revisionist" Tekumel theology is interesting, although perhaps the priesthoods 
of Tsolyanu might find it heretical -- or nonsense. Dig, dig, dig! You wouldn't 
want me to just up and blat it out, would you? It's more fun to dig until you 
find it. I should tell you that much of Tekumel's "mystery" has now come to 
light through the determined efforts of dozens of gamers like yourselves, but 
there are still some very large secrets undiscovered, adventures unfinished, and
ideas unexplored.

----------
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
[Moderator's note:  Wow, What a day!  ]


//11
[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker responds to Alex's massive posting,]
[                   but also an excellent posting, from last night      ]
>List Member Alex Stojanovic writes:
> 
>Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts
> 
>(This is meant as a stimulus to discussion, not as an authoritative
>disposition of any of these themes! - Alexander)
> 
>I an interested in disentangling the relationship between the orthodox
>Engsvanyali Pantheon (Pavar's Tlomitlanyal/Tlokiriqaluyal) and the Heredox
>sects centered around the Pariah Dieties (The Goddess of the Pale Bone, The
>One Other, and The One Who Is). Basically, I postulate a much "closer"
>connexion between the theological-mythological orthodoxy and the cthnonic
>Pariah Dieties than has previously been suggested. I will further suggest
>that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of
>Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers'
>rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the
>heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleaned from the worship of the Old
>Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah
>Dieties. It must be remembered that the complex orthodoxy relating to Aspect
>Theology on Tekumel -- i.e. which God does a specific "aspect" belong to --
>is largely a matter of historical, economic, and social expediency. A
>Worshipper of Ksarul may claim, and have huge amounts of precedent to back
>him up, that Nirisepugallukh (The Blue Shadow) is an aspect of Lord Ksarul
>dating back from the Bednalljan Period. But I wonder... what if the Blue
>Shadow aspect was an amalgamation of The One Other and primitive "Ksarul
>Worship", just for argument's sake. What if the Blue Shadow aspect
>represents a co-opting by orthodoxy (The Pavar descendents) of
>faiths/beliefs/ and knowledge more appropriately attributed to one/more of
>the Pariah Dieties??? The question raises itself: how did the orthodox
>theologians such as Pavar "learn" about the Pariah Dieties? Answer: they
>were probably worhsippers of these dieties themseleves, and were "converted
>by the sword" to the "new faith"! 

The priesthoods will quickly admit that this has indeed happened, historically. 
Various ancient deities have become syncretically amalgamated into the personae 
of the 20 deities of Pavar's pantheon. I think I could delve around and come up 
with a few Bednalljan deities that did not survive Pavar's revolution -- but 
which "resurfaced" later as "Aspects" of conceptually-related deities in Pavar's
theology. This is similar to developments on earth: e.g. the Great Goddess of 
ancient Europe and the devotion to the Virgin Mary, the saints of Catholicism 
and the gods of prehispanic Mexico. I can dredge up all sorts of comparisons 
with Hinduism and other religions as well.

As for conversion "by the sword," I tend to doubt there was a lot of that. Most 
conversion en-masse seems more due to economics and political opportunism.

>What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a
>situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the
>One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the
>mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of
>Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in
>the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] Although their numbers have always
>been small, they have "infiltrated" the orthodox religious institutions over
>the course of centuries. Guiding (by way of "small" alterations in the
>rituals and beliefs of these faiths, assassination, intrigue, and cunning)
>the orthodox religions to "move" more toward the "True Faith" (in their
>eyes). The wolf in the center of the fold! Much of Tekumel, from my
>perspective, is focused around that sort of imbricated intrigue -- a
>volatile and unstable view even more than the standard "Secret Societies"
>(like the Refulgent Blue Curtain Society (Ksarul), or the Order of Argent
>(Chegarra)). The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes,
>only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could
>be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane!

You have hit one of the myriad nails rather close to the head. I can offer a lot
more examples: e.g. that of Metallja and the sect of the Blasphemous 
Accelerators. See the submission to the Blue Room by Lord Tekunu hiQolyelmu of 
the Clan of the Golden Sunburst. The secret citadel of Onchash Chairan rather 
parallels the sect started by Ssraminesh mra Kutaya. [By the bye, how did you 
happen upon Ssraminesh? Did I mention him to you? It's too much to imagine that 
you coincidentally came upon him by yourself!]

>I know what you're thinking -- Christ -- where is he getting this rubbish!
>Everybody "knows" that Tekumel's dieties are "really" just superpowerful
>beings way beyond their worshippers on the cosmic power scale! It's
>"madness" to speculate of their motives! Where is this "abstruse"
>theological meandering going! The Scrolls of Pavar "clearly" state this
>(look at the Sourcebook for references, or the Book of Ebon Bindings)!!! I
>am suggesting that a slightly "deeper" look be taken at the "historical
>record" provided by Pavar and others after him...
> 
>But what if the dieties are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic
>entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their
>worshippers? These cookie-cutter deities "representing" some elemental
>attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge,
>apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting.

Hmm. You are closer than you think. The real thinkers of Tekumel are also not 
satisfied with "cookie-cutter deities." Unfortunately, such creations tend to 
satisfy millions of average worshippers. Go listen to the sermons in almost any 
"average" Christian church -- or Muslim mosque, etc. etc. There is much more to 
the cookie than what comes out of the cutter...
> 
>[Slight rant: The ethnologist George Dumezeil, in his classical study,
>Mitra/Varuna, showed the historical / transformation/ development/
>assimilation process underlying much of what we call our "modern" faiths. He
>found a mythological matrix, based on the Indo-Iranian Dieities of Mitra and
>Varuna -- which was applied, mutated, transformed beyond recognition, until
>you got something like St. Valentine's Day arising out of the cthonic
>"Underworld rituals" of the Lupercalia! Talk about a twisted and complex
>incubation of new "religious"/societal forms.] 

You are correct. The syncretic process in India (and Tekumel) continues 
throughout history unabated. Study the development of the "gods" in ancient 
Egypt. This process is active in Tekumelani life at various levels of 
complexity, depending upon the social, educational, and economic levels of the 
people concerned.
> 
>My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an
>"outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities.
>Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated
>over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate
>Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive Pariah cults have always been in the
>"center" of Tekumelyani societies - guiding the course of events like
>puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special"
>knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for
>the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic
>frenzy of liberation and obliteration.

Don't give all the secrets of Tekumel away, dammit! There are hints and clues to
the powers of these sects in various places in Tekumel literature. Watch for the
signposts pointing to Coming Events...
 
>But where would one look to find support for such a theory. Let's start with
>Ksarul, my favorite Engsvanyali diety. I have always found the "Story" of
>Lord Ksarul's Banishment/Imprisonment, as recounted in the classical sources
>(Lament to the Wheel of Black - Engsvanyali Recension), suspiciously like a
>piece of "theological revisionism". Just as the advent of Classical Islam
>brought about a recasting of more cthonic myths and beliefs (Djinns, Demons,
>etc.) in light of the "approved party line", perhaps a similar curent
>overtook the Pariah Dieities.

One can always look at Jesus as a retelling of the Osiris myth of death and 
resurrection. Remember, Jesus went down into Egypt -- and Paul did not stay in 
Jerusalem long but headed down into Egypt when he arrived after Jesus' apparent 
death. As for classical Islam, one can indeed speak of the insertion of Jinn, 
the stories of earlier Prophets (Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus, etc.), and all sorts 
of local Arab customs into the religious matrix, but the ironclad monotheism of 
Allah is NOT part of pre-Islamic Arabia. Was it essentially a copy of the Yahveh
of the Jews, bypassing the Jesiolatry of the Christian sects of the Prophet's 
day, or was it a continuation of the monotheistic tradition continuing right 
down from Adam through Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, as the Prophet Muhammad said 
it was?

>Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle
>of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of
>myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah
>Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern
>"name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished",
>both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who
>"imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!)

This doesn't ring quite true. Ksarul is clearly different in both nature and 
mythologiy/theology from the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Their goals are 
different, too, if one follows the Inner Texts.

>Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah
>Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled"
>upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? 

Probably the Pariah Deities were indeed "pre-Pavar" and even"pre-Ksarul" in his 
Bednalljan form. I could dig up the history of the Pariah sects, but ensuing 
generations have so tinged all of their opponents with "horror" and "revulsion" 
that few know of their existence at all. You won't find any more in Tsolyani 
schoolbooks on the Pariah Deities than you will find about Islam in American 
kids' literature. The Index of the Inquisition is fairly inefficient compared to
the Palace of the Priesthoods in Bey Su, which has seen to the sequestering of 
ANYTHING relating to the Pariah Deities to the "locked stacks."

>Enquiring minds want to know! I suggest that the banishment/imprisonment/return
>pattern of Ksarul is a prolepsis (foretelling) of the "return of the Pariah 
>Dieties" -- an impending big Shootout at the OK Corral/Gotterdammerung which 
>will (on a mythological/symbolic level) represent a closure/repetition of the 
>"Divine Time". The Twilight/Doom of the Gods fortold in a legend which, 
>ostensibly, is about a distant episode in Tekumel's "mythic" past in the Battle
>of Dormoron Plain. I really like that!

You are welcome to your opinion. You may be correct...

>Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search
>Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the
>nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent
>generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological  consolidation.
>That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to
>maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted
>themselves over the next centuries? The One Oher did "help" to vanquish
>Ksarul -- "why" he did so remains a considerable point of dispute. But then,
>as sources relate, the worship of this diety was proscribed, the worshippers
>slaughtered, the temples razed, and all records striken.. Or were they? The
>Livyani have always been "secretive" about their faith on the Shadows Gods.
>What secrets really "lurk" in the Secret City of Dlash -- and what about
>that city in Livyanu NAMED AFTER A SECRET ARGOT OF THE PARIAH DIETIES --
>SUNUZ??? Mere phonological coincidence? I don't think so!

Again, you could be correct. You are certainly subtle enough to be a Tekumelani 
yourself! Anybody VISIT the town of Sunuz recently? Maybe this would provide a 
good adventure -- in a recently plague-ridden land now occupied by Mu'ugalavyani
troops... 

>My interest in the Pariah Dieties arose out some research and development of
>the "languages" of these heretical sects/religions (Zna'ye, Sunuz, Ai Che).
>I have always maintained that Duruob is linguistically related to Sunuz --
>again the Livyani connection.

Sunuz is not genetically related to Duru'ob, but there are CLOSE connections. 
Zna'ye and Ai Che are linguistically from totally different families, but there 
are theological and conceptual relationships that deserve exploring.

>How about Llyani -- which was codified and
>used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were
>transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar
>sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable!

Don't be too harsh on him. He did manage a reasonable amalgamation of the data -
- and he solved a lot of theological inconsistencies that had been bothering the
scholars of the First Imperium. 

>I think
>modern Tekumelyani society is a "bit too accomodating" of Pavar's theology.
>What did Pavar base his insights on? The Sourcebook only mentions that he
>made contact with several more of the "Gods" (We have only historical
>tradition to prove that the Names/Entities mentioned in the Scrolls refer to
>the modern pantheon!) As in classical Hellenistic society, with its ten or
>so different "Zeus" figures (they later got amalgamated into one
>"Super-Zeus"), Pavar's writing should be taken with a bit of
>historical/ethnological distrust. OK - you can summon the "Gods" or their
>minions -- but what does that prove about their identity? Nothing. I know
>several will point out the immense disinterest on Modern Tekumelyani to
>engage in theological disputation, but that is really beside the point. I am
>interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in
>Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the
>"consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all,
>all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative
>underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over
>four years!

You are certainly welcome to investigate this part of Tekumelani religion. If 
you can find out more about the Pariah Deities, I should be very interested to 
see it. Tsolyani history and scholarship is NOT interested (openly) in the 
Pariah Deities, as said above, but there are a few scholars here and there.

>I would be interested in hearing other viewpoints on this. Especially
>dissenters who feel my slant of things is without a leg to stand on! 
>I am in the process of compiling a Lexicographical Dictionary on the
>Heretical Sects of the Pariah and Engnsvanyali Dieties -- entitled Tipika
>Hereziark'a (Book of the Heresiarchs). It will include linguistic,
>historical/anecdotal, biographical, and theological information on this
>intersection of pariah/heretical theology and the more ritualized and
>hypostatic Engsvanyali theology as received by the modern inhabitants of
>Tekumel. I hope that this triggers some minute amount of discussion - since
>Tekumel's theology, history, and (most of all) linguistics are what have
>fascinated me since 1983 (when I was fifteen).

I can't guarantee that your book will work as "real" Tekumel. But it will 
certainly be interesting, even if purely heretical.  You might make a pilgrimage
to the city of Hmakuyal; there are scholars there with interests like yours. Ask
for a scholar-priest named Deragu hiFershena. He may be there or in Bey Su. He 
has ideas about the Pariah Deities that mesh with yours in some ways.

Dinner conversation, Chris? Anybody still hungry?
------
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
[Moderator's Note:  Yes, Professor, in this case it is good dinner ]
[                   conversation.  It is now 7:15 and I have only  ]
[                   eaten a sandwich all day.  You guys are keeping]
[                   me way too busy!  :)  I think I'll go offline  ]
[                   for a few hours.  Great Work Everyone!         ]


//12
[Moderator's Note:  Karl asks a question about other religions in Setnakh ]
[                   and Professor Barker responds.                        ]

There is not much presence of any _organised_ Dilinala, Dlamelish, or Hrihayal 
activity in Setnakh. The whole area is rather solidly Avanthe, Hnalla, and 
Thumis (and their Cohorts), with some Belkhanu/Qon and sprinklings of Karakan/
Chegarra, Sarku/Durritlamish, and Salarvyani immigrants who worship Lady 
Shiringgayyi. I think there is a small group of Dilinala worshippers (5-10) in 
the agricultural-administrative section of the Governor's staff, and I am sure 
there are Dlamelish/Hrihayal worshippers in the brothels and also in the White 
Stone clanhouse. The latter are persons of some quality, mostly from Jakalla and
involved with the cloth trade. They have a small shrine and perform the 
rudiments of the rituals for the Two Ladies. If you are looking for really 
intricate Dlamelish/Hrihayal rituals, you must go on to Jakalla. Visitors to 
Setnakh who serve these deities must either perform their rituals by themselves,
or else ask around until they can be directed to the White Stone clanhouse, 
where they are usually invited to join in the local observances.

There are also no nonhuman houses _per_ _se_ in Setnakh. It is too small for 
such urban frills. Ahoggya visitors to the town usually rent tents and buy 
provisions outside the town (south of the main southern gate); there is a Pe 
Choi family resident in the town (to the west of the White Stone clanhouse), and
they take in occasional Pe Choi merchants, etc. Larger parties must quarter 
outside the town, of course. I think the same is true for the rare Hlaka who 
stops here; most of these flyers go straight on to Jakalla or else camp in one 
of the glades along the ridge between the two rivers to the west.
----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//13
[Moderator's Note:  Alex elaborates on the replies he received from Mike   ]
[                   and Professor Barker.                                  ]

Here are some replies to the constructive input I received in regard to the
topic of Pariah Heresiology from Mike Cule and Professor Barker. I would
like to make some small comment on both of the replies posted. I hope this
is not consuming too much bandwidth. [Note: I greatly appreciated the input!
I would love to hear from others as well.]

[Moderator's note:  Alex, you are not consuming too much bandwidth!  Keep  ]
[                   em coming!  Ignore my dinner conversation comments :)  ]

>>Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts

[from Mike Cule's letter]
>>Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and 
>>verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all 
>>the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they 
>>worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an
>>impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. 

I do not dispute this synopsis of the orthodox theological position. It was
made very persuasivley by a Mriyan in the Temple of Ksarul (cf: Preface to
the Book of Ebon Bindings) However, I believe it is (1) fascinating and (2)
great fodder for thinking about Tekumel to consider a view of Tekumel's
history through the prism/optic of the Pariah Dieties and their cults.
Syncretism(sp?) and revisionism are prime forces in the molding of social
history/beliefs -- and the viewpoint that Pavar (and the Engsvanyali
PriestKings) brought to Tekumel is a legitimate, but perhaps limited, one.

>>These are objective
>>facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. 

I have to disagree here slightly. The amalgamation process evinced by the
development of the orthodox canon (in both its doxology, mythology, and
eschatology (a whole lot 'o 'logies'!) would suggest that human whims and
social pressures have had a major impact on the "view" of the Gods. A case
in point is Lord Hrsh, the major Mu'ugalavyani Diety. The Mu'ugalavyani
recension of the Lament to the Wheel of Black is replete with mentions of
Hrsh's activities in the "God Time", yet the classical Engsvanyali recension
fails to mention him at all. Now, realise that epic poetry, myths, and
song-cycles are amoung the most prominent ways of dessemination of what I
call "doxology" -- and you see exactly where and how social
pressures/expediencies come into play. Let's face it, the majority of
Tekumel's inhabitants never receive formal education/religious
training/theological indoctrination -- they grow up. live, and die emeshed
in the myths and stories "in general circulation". (They get their
"religion" from epic cycles like the Epic of Na'Inverge, not from
ecclessiatical treatises.) A Parallel development to Lord Hrsh is the
Salarvyani Lady Shiringgayi (sp?) -- viewed by Tsolyani
sophisticates/theologians as an "amalgam" of aspects of Avanthe and
Dlamelish. But from the perspective of worshippers of Lady S. -- she is her
"own" being/essence -- they do not parse her down into finer "ontological"
categories. What "currents" flowed together to forge this unique Diety (Lady
S)? That is the purpose of "heresiology" in my sense -- to bring those
currents to the surface, and to highlight the marginal/mutant
"micro-histories" that escape the big, standard treaties, pandects,
codicils, tomes, etc. Much of the "formative matter" of Christianity can be
found in the "heretical writings" of the Nag Hammadi library -- writings
which were there at the "origin" of Christianity (offering a competing
vision/theology/symbology) - but which were (in this case) ruthlessly
suppressed/proscribed/banned/etc. What I would like to produce (perhaps with
the aid of other like-minded souls) is a "secret history" of Tekumel --
filling in those gaps left out by the PriestKings and their decendents!
Hence, the Tipika Hereziark'a. For each king, a heresiarch! I think that
would bring out the "logic" of Tekumel's history out even better than a
one-sided/orthodox account. [Note: I readily acknowledge the possibility of
multiple "orthodoxies" -- Hrsh worship, the Shadow Gods, Lady Shirringgayi,
the Shen Dieties, etc.] 

My point is this: far from eliminating syncretism, the present
"relationship" of the people of Tekumel to "their" gods is highly syncretic.
My purpose is to take the rich tapestry apart -- to find the intricate
threads that have been woven into the orthodoxy of the Five Empires. The
Pariah Dieities (and their cults/sects) appear to be a point-of-entry (hence
the Book of the Heresiarchs...)

Otherwise, thanks Mike. I hope to hear from you again on these topics!

>>But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty
gods >>and cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is
indeed >>likely to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may
be.....

I would love to have a more serious/extensive discussion of the "Great Mystery".
I realize that over-analysis could easily neutralize the ethos and wonder of
Tekumel, but some elaboration on the College of Wizards, the "Egg of the
World", and allied mysteries is in order.

[Professor Barker's reply (much appreciated)]

>>I will further suggest
>>that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of
>>Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers'
>>rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the
>>heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleaned from the worship of the Old
>>Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah
>>Dieties. 

>The priesthoods will quickly admit that this has indeed happened, historically.
>Various ancient deities have become syncretically amalgamated into the personae
>of the 20 deities of Pavar's pantheon. I think I could delve around and come up
>with a few Bednalljan deities that did not survive Pavar's revolution -- but 
>which "resurfaced" later as "Aspects" of conceptually-related deities in 
>Pavar's theology. 

Great! This is exactly what I was driving at. Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa of the
Temple of Ksarul at Urmish, prior to his mysterious disappearance in 2365
AS, was researching the foundations of early Ksarul worship in the southeast
of modern day Tsolyanu (in the area of Salarvya conjectured to be the site
of ancient Purdanim). His treatise on Ai Che and Zna'ye (The Codicil of the
Blue King in Glory) (officially repressed by factions within the Temple) was
the beginning of a study of the influence of certain "unmentionable" Dieties
in the initial/nascent development of the worship of Ksarul. Specifically,
the "methodology" for contacting the God/and his minions and the secret
(inner) doctrines surrounding his "legendary battle" with the other gods.
Things are not as simple as the Lament to the Wheel of Black would put it.
The "hidden symbology" of Ksarul, known only to the highest ranks of the
faithful, paints a more mysterious view of this "Rebel of the Gods". Tsemel
Ni'ur's research was, in part, an attempted explanation/description of the
mythico-theological roots these inherited "inner mysteries". Unfortunately
this research has been buried since his disappearance....and several of his
closest friends has also met with "accidents" since then (both within
Tsolyanu and abroad). I hope to include an excerpt from his writings in the
Book of the Heresiarchs.

>As for conversion "by the sword," I tend to doubt there was a lot of that. Most
>conversion en-masse seems more due to economics and political opportunism.

I would agree entirely -- except that I think all three factors were
strongly in play. The War between Vimulha and Ksarul worshippers is a case
in point (I hope) of mass conversion (or attempted conversion...) under
extreme political and social duress.

>>What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a
>>situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the
>>One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the
>>mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of
>>Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in
>>the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] 
>>The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes,
>>only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could
>>be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane!

>The secret citadel of Onchash Chairan rather 
>parallels the sect started by Ssraminesh mra Kutaya. [By the bye, how did you 
>happen upon Ssraminesh? Did I mention him to you? It's too much to imagine that
>you coincidentally came upon him by yourself!]

I am afraid that it was pure coincidence. Unless I accidentally read the
name in one of the official Tekumel publications (very possible) -- I do not
remember you mentioning it to me (in our correspondence). Please tell me a
little more about your Ssraminesh, I am eager to learn more about him!
Apologies for any inconvenience this duplication may have caused -- I always
try to be scrupulous in acknowledging any "borrowing". Perhaps Tekunu
mentioned him to me -- and I just "filed" it away unconsciously???! Also,
please provide a little more on the secret citadel of Onchash Chairan --
Tekunu did not "know" much about it. 

>>But what if the dieties are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic
>>entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their
>>worshippers? These cookie-cutter deities "representing" some elemental
>>attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge,
>>apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting.
>
>Hmm. You are closer than you think. The real thinkers of Tekumel are also not 
>satisfied with "cookie-cutter deities." Unfortunately, such creations tend to 
>satisfy millions of average worshippers. Go listen to the sermons in almost any
>"average" Christian church -- or Muslim mosque, etc. etc. There is much more to
>the cookie than what comes out of the cutter...

In several cases in my expeditions on Tekumel I have encountered scholars
and priests who have delved into the "deep spirituality"(hidden doctrines)
of the Engsvanyali Dieties. Perhaps a visit to Hmakuyal and Sunuz would be
in order! Do you have any suggestions on how to get to these cities/sites. I
really do not know what the "current" situation in Livyanu is -- aside from
the "false plague" and Mu'ugalavyani occupation! 
 
>>My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an
>>"outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities.
>>Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated
>>over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate
>>Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive Pariah cults have always been in the
>>"center" of Tekumelyani societies - guiding the course of events like
>>puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special"
>>knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for
>>the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic
>>frenzy of liberation and obliteration.

>Don't give all the secrets of Tekumel away, dammit! There are hints and clues 
>to the powers of these sects in various places in Tekumel literature. Watch 
>for the signposts pointing to Coming Events...

You have my word, no secrets given away. (not that I have many, mind you!)
But I must inquire, where will we be seeing these signposts? Is the Livyani
Plague a precursor to something MUCH LARGER? (I suspect that it is!) Who was
behind the false plague?

>One can always look at Jesus as a retelling of the Osiris myth of death and 
>resurrection. Remember, Jesus went down into Egypt -- and Paul did not stay in 
>Jerusalem long but headed down into Egypt when he arrived after Jesus' apparent
>death. 
>
>>Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle
>>of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of
>>myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah
>>Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern
>>"name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished",
>>both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who
>>"imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!)

>This doesn't ring quite true. Ksarul is clearly different in both nature and 
>mythologiy/theology from the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Their goals are 
>different, too, if one follows the Inner Texts.

I stand corrected. What I may have meant to say is that the Ksarul-myth is
drawn out of a historico-social context in which SOME elements of the
Pariah-myths were inserted (perhaps unconsciously) by the adherents of the
"new" faith. The Emergence of Ksarul in the Bednalljan Period is, by my
estimation, not "just" a coincidence of history -- I think the Bednalljans
were LED to Ksarul by forces/beings that they did not fully understand nor
appreciate. (More on this in the Tipika Hereziark'a) I would however love to
get my hands on some of the Inner Texts -- who is the best source in
Tsolyanu for this? Deragu hiFershena?


>>Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah
>>Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled"
>>upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? 
>
>Probably the Pariah Deities were indeed "pre-Pavar" and even"pre-Ksarul" in his
>Bednalljan form. The Index of the Inquisition is fairly inefficient compared to
>the Palace of the Priesthoods in Bey Su, which has seen to the sequestering of 
>ANYTHING relating to the Pariah Deities to the "locked stacks."

What was the first recorded "contact" with the Pariah Dieties? Who would be
the most likely "modern adherents" to the Pariah faith. (i.e. who is good
"heretic" material?) What of the religious life of the Three States of the
Triangle? Those guys are usually relegated by standard histories to "getting
their a---s kicked by the Nluss Dragon Warriors). There must have been a
little more to them than that! I should note that some fascinating
archeological sites were "discovered" recently in the swamps north of Penom
that would indicate some level of organized worship of the Pariah Dieities.
Even more ominous, some conjecture has been advanced to indicate that the
Ssu and/Hlyuss have had "contact" with the Goddess of the Pale Bone as late
as the fall of the Three States of the Triangle. It's still too early to
tell, but increased activities/forays into Tsolyanu have been reported as
far west as Penom.

Who currently "watches over" the proscribed texts? When was the last major
action taken against the Pariah Dieities' worshippers. If memory serves,
wasn't it Trankolel I (3rd Seal Emporer???) who led his armies against the
minions of the One Other? What precipitated this action? A Resurgence in the
"Old Faith"?

>>Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search
>>Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the
>>nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent
>>generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological  consolidation.
>>That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to
>>maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted
>>themselves over the next centuries? 

>Again, you could be correct. You are certainly subtle enough to be a Tekumelani
>yourself! Anybody VISIT the town of Sunuz recently? Maybe this would provide a 
>good adventure -- in a recently plague-ridden land now occupied by 
>Mu'ugalavyani troops... 

If I could get some advice on how to get past the Mu'ugalavyani -- I just
might pay a visit to SUNUZ. Perhaps via Nexal-Gate or tubeway car...Anybody
got any spare Navigation Disks? What is currently the situation there in
Livyanu? Has the Plague passed over? Why was it "artificial"? Who was behind
it then? Has the Forbidden City of Dlash been "breached" by Mu'ugalavyani
legions? My favorite nation has always been Livyanu -- I hate to see fall on
such hard times!

>>My interest in the Pariah Dieties arose out some research and development of
>>the "languages" of these heretical sects/religions (Zna'ye, Sunuz, Ai Che).
>>I have always maintained that Duruob is linguistically related to Sunuz --
>>again the Livyani connection.

>Sunuz is not genetically related to Duru'ob, but there are CLOSE connections. 
>Zna'ye and Ai Che are linguistically from totally different families, but there
>are theological and conceptual relationships that deserve exploring.

What sort of shared semantic or mythic-patterns do we find in source texts
(shared iconography?). Is there a "Rosetta Stone"-like treatise available in
Tsolyanu on this theological/conceptual "connection"? My own research has
dug up, in addition to the work I already mentioned, several Classical
Engsvanyali texts -- purporting to be "grammars" of some very odd dialects
of Duru'ob... as well as an Ai Che grammar by Kaijda hi'Gessumai of Purdimal
published during the reign of "The Spider" (Nriqu??) Emperor (only known
extant copy held by the Temple of Ksarul in that city). All works draw on
far older sources --some of which may well prove apocryphal. The most
interesting material, however, may be some alledged "translations" (in
Bednalljan Salarvyani) on Mihalli texts (Titles include: The Pandect of
Des'as'ura and The Codex of the Renderer of Veils  (an odd combination of
poetry and rituals related to "other planar voyages"). I will pass my
research along to you and the rest of this group as time permits.

>>How about Llyani -- which was codified and
>>used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were
>>transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar
>>sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable!
>
>Don't be too harsh on him. He did manage a reasonable amalgamation of the data
>-and he solved a lot of theological inconsistencies that had been bothering the
>scholars of the First Imperium. 

I have/had no intention of laying into the old guy, I think Pavar was a
major figure in the emergence of a coherent(partailly), institutional
framework for religious worship. Like all good pupils, I have studied the
Scrolls of Pavar well. I only press the point that he "missed", whether
intentionally or not, some major aspects of the theology of the
Gods(Orthodox and otherwise). Pavar was a swell guy -- and the Golden Age of
Engsvan hla Ganga was a result!

>>I am
>>interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in
>>Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the
>>"consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all,
>>all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative
>>underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over
>>four years!

>You are certainly welcome to investigate this part of Tekumelani religion. If 
>you can find out more about the Pariah Deities, I should be very interested to 
>see it. Tsolyani history and scholarship is NOT interested (openly) in the 
>Pariah Deities, as said above, but there are a few scholars here and there.

I will get portions of the Book of the Heresiarchs(probably those dealing
with the Brotherhhod of the One True Shadow) out to the group for
consideration as soon as possible.

>I can't guarantee that your book will work as "real" Tekumel. But it will 
>certainly be interesting, even if purely heretical. You might make a pilgrimage
>to the city of Hmakuyal; there are scholars there with interests like yours.Ask
>for a scholar-priest named Deragu hiFershena. He may be there or in Bey Su. He 
>has ideas about the Pariah Deities that mesh with yours in some ways.

He sounds like a scholar I would enjoy meeting with. Please give me some
more particulars about him (such as his physical description, personal
habits/tastes, clan, and most recent whereabouts). What can you tell me of
Hmakuyal -- I only know that it is the site of several important shrines to
Ksaruland now a set of "ruins"! I need travel directions! Being sequestered
in Bey Su until I can get Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa's notes and scholarly
materials released has put a definite crimp in my travel plans. Perhaps I
should just let by well connection clan brothers take over and hit the road
to Hmakuyal/Sunuz!

>Dinner conversation, Chris? Anybody still hungry?
Insatiable! Thanks for the detailed response -- it has proven very enlightening.
 
------
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

[Moderator's note:  Again Alex, thanks for the incredible detail in your  ]
[                   posts.  I am posting this directly to the list, and   ]
[                   forwarding to Professor Barker                        ]


//14
[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker responds to Alex's second message on  ]
[                   Pariah Heresiology                                     ]
[>>>> = Alex's First (Message 2)                                           ]
[>>>  = Mike's Response (Message 8)                                        ]
[>>   = Professor Barkers response (Message 10)                            ]
[>    = Alex's Second Message responding to Message 8 and 10 (Message 13)  ]
[   Sorry for the delay, but I had to work out the above message legend.   ]
[   Let me know if it was helpful, or do you just want the message pretty  ]
[   much as is, and any figuring out of who said what earlier will be left ]
[   up to you (the most recent message will always have one > in front of  ]
[   it, and the reply will have none.  Sorry for the delay in sending this ]
[   out.                                                                   ]

[Further Note:  I am currently working on the Temple of Thumis article from]
[one of the old magazines.  If anyone wants to whip up one of the other    ]
[articles, please feel free to do so.  You can send it to me and I'll put  ]
[it on the ftp site for everyone to enjoy.  Contact me for some thoughts   ]
[on writing up articles (to preserve the diacritical marks).               ] 

>>>>Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts

>>>Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and 
>>>verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all
>>>the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they 
>>>worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an
>>>impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. 

>I do not dispute this synopsis of the orthodox theological position. It was
>made very persuasivley by a Mriyan in the Temple of Ksarul (cf: Preface to
>the Book of Ebon Bindings) However, I believe it is (1) fascinating and (2)
>great fodder for thinking about Tekumel to consider a view of Tekumel's
>history through the prism/optic of the Pariah Dieties and their cults.
>Syncretism(sp?) and revisionism are prime forces in the molding of social
>history/beliefs -- and the viewpoint that Pavar (and the Engsvanyali
>PriestKings) brought to Tekumel is a legitimate, but perhaps limited, one.

>>>These are objective
>>>facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. 

>I have to disagree here slightly. The amalgamation process evinced by the
>development of the orthodox canon (in both its doxology, mythology, and
>eschatology (a whole lot 'o 'logies'!) would suggest that human whims and
>social pressures have had a major impact on the "view" of the Gods. A case
>in point is Lord Hrsh, the major Mu'ugalavyani Diety. The Mu'ugalavyani
>recension of the Lament to the Wheel of Black is replete with mentions of
>Hrsh's activities in the "God Time", yet the classical Engsvanyali recension
>fails to mention him at all. Now, realise that epic poetry, myths, and
>song-cycles are amoung the most prominent ways of dessemination of what I
>call "doxology" -- and you see exactly where and how social
>pressures/expediencies come into play. Let's face it, the majority of
>Tekumel's inhabitants never receive formal education/religious
>training/theological indoctrination -- they grow up. live, and die emeshed
>in the myths and stories "in general circulation".

As do Americans, Britishers, Frenchmen, Mongols, Pakistanis, etc. The fact is 
that ecclesiastical treatises and philosophical tomes are pretty hard going for 
most folks. I sweated through Philosophy 101 and snoozed over Descartes and Kant
myself. It wasn't hat I saw some good in these thinkers and came to enjoy 
reading them.

>(They get their
>"religion" from epic cycles like the Epic of Na'Inverge, not from
>ecclessiatical treatises.) A Parallel development to Lord Hrsh is the
>Salarvyani Lady Shiringgayi (sp?) -- viewed by Tsolyani
>sophisticates/theologians as an "amalgam" of aspects of Avanthe and
>Dlamelish. But from the perspective of worshippers of Lady S. -- she is her
>"own" being/essence -- they do not parse her down into finer "ontological"
>categories. What "currents" flowed together to forge this unique Diety (Lady
>S)? That is the purpose of "heresiology" in my sense -- to bring those
>currents to the surface, and to highlight the marginal/mutant
>"micro-histories" that escape the big, standard treaties, pandects,
>codicils, tomes, etc. Much of the "formative matter" of Christianity can be
>found in the "heretical writings" of the Nag Hammadi library -- writings
>which were there at the "origin" of Christianity (offering a competing
>vision/theology/symbology) - but which were (in this case) ruthlessly
>suppressed/proscribed/banned/etc.

I would add that the writings of Paul (who never actually met Jesus and who had 
only a "vision of him to go by) -- and the lack of actual writings from those 
resident in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus -- had a lot to do with the moulding 
of Christianity. By the time the Church bishops finished with their choosing and
discarding of the books of the Holy Writ, there probably wasn't much left that 
an early follower of Jesus from Jerusalem could have recognised. 

>-- What I would like to produce (perhaps with
>the aid of other like-minded souls) is a "secret history" of Tekumel --
>filling in those gaps left out by the PriestKings and their decendents!
>Hence, the Tipika Hereziark'a. For each king, a heresiarch! I think that
>would bring out the "logic" of Tekumel's history out even better than a
>one-sided/orthodox account. [Note: I readily acknowledge the possibility of
>multiple "orthodoxies" -- Hrsh worship, the Shadow Gods, Lady Shirringgayi,
>the Shen Dieties, etc.]

Is this still possible? Many of these works are lost, distorted, or twisted 
completely beyond recogniseability by later ecclesiasts. There are only a few 
Sunuz texts extant, fewer Zna'ye, and a lot of Ai Che stuff that is clearly 
later and much garbled. Duru'ob is better known but still a corpus a couple of 
thousand years old. Llyani is limited to a few texts and various monuments. I am
not sure we can reach back to the point where you want to go. Is it not possible
that your "Tipika Hereziark'a" may even be a later forgery, put out by one or 
another faction to confuse these issues? This sounds like something tthe Temple 
of Ksarul would happily do in order to keep religious history muddled. I can't 
say whether I am right or wrong -- not until I have actually seen the 
manuscript.

>My point is this: far from eliminating syncretism, the present
>"relationship" of the people of Tekumel to "their" gods is highly syncretic.
>My purpose is to take the rich tapestry apart -- to find the intricate
>threads that have been woven into the orthodoxy of the Five Empires. The
>Pariah Dieities (and their cults/sects) appear to be a point-of-entry (hence
>the Book of the Heresiarchs...)

I hope you can manage this. Many people would be interested. But you will 
encounter only hostility and even danger from the orthodoxies who do NOT want 
the role(s) of the Pariah Deities revealed to the scholarly community.

>>>But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty gods 
>>>and cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is indeed 
>>>likely to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may be.....

>I would love to have a more serious/extensive discussion of the "Great 
>Mystery".
>I realize that over-analysis could easily neutralize the ethos and wonder of
>Tekumel, but some elaboration on the College of Wizards, the "Egg of the
>World", and allied mysteries is in order.

Various of my players can speak on these topics better than I. The College of 
Wizards at the End of Time is a frequent destination when the players are 
fleeing from something bigger and more horrible than the usual nasties. The 
Undying Wizards (Thomar, Subadim, Hagarr, and the lot) dwell in reasonable 
harmony in the College and make frequent forays out to defend the Many Planes 
from the ravages of She Who Cannot Be Named. The place is located at the site of
today's Avanthar, but many, many millennia in the future, when "all the Strands 
of Time have finally come together as one," as Lady Sarvodaya Di'ela (one of the
Great Wizards who has a tendency to work both sides of the ideological street) 
puts it. They occasionally put up with refugees and visitors from "down-time," 
but they reveal nothing and evince little interest in "who is Emperor?" and 
similar local and minor questions. They are not aware of the solution to the 
Great Mystery, of this I am certain. I doubt that they know it exists as such.

>>>>I will further suggest
>>>>that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of
>>>>Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers'
>>>>rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the
>>>>heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleaned from the worship of the Old
>>>>Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah
>>>>Dieties.

You are almost certainly correct here.

>>The priesthoods will quickly admit that this has indeed happened,historically.
>>Various ancient deities have become syncretically amalgamated into the 
>>personae
>>of the 20 deities of Pavar's pantheon.I think I could delve around and come up
>>with a few Bednalljan deities that did not survive Pavar's revolution -- but 
>>which "resurfaced" later as "Aspects" of conceptually-related deities in 
>>Pavar's theology. 

>Great! This is exactly what I was driving at. Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa of the
>Temple of Ksarul at Urmish, prior to his mysterious disappearance in 2365
>AS, was researching the foundations of early Ksarul worship in the southeast
>of modern day Tsolyanu (in the area of Salarvya conjectured to be the site
>of ancient Purdanim).

Actually many thinkers believe that Purdanim was located somewhere a hundred 
Tsan or so north of Setnakh in modern Tsolyanu, although this is dubious. If so,
it is buried beneath 400-500 feet of alluvial topsoil.

>His treatise on Ai Che and Zna'ye (The Codicil of the
>Blue King in Glory) (officially repressed by factions within the Temple) was
>the beginning of a study of the influence of certain "unmentionable" Dieties
>in the initial/nascent development of the worship of Ksarul. Specifically,
>the "methodology" for contacting the God/and his minions and the secret
>(inner) doctrines surrounding his "legendary battle" with the other gods.
>Things are not as simple as the Lament to the Wheel of Black would put it.

Quite correct. I always thought Ni'ur was a fuddy-duddy until I read his 
treatise called "The Rising of the Blue Prince Eternal." He seems to have been 
more correct than most of his colleagues dared believe.

>The "hidden symbology" of Ksarul, known only to the highest ranks of the
>faithful, paints a more mysterious view of this "Rebel of the Gods". Tsemel
>Ni'ur's research was, in part, an attempted explanation/description of the
>mythico-theological roots these inherited "inner mysteries". Unfortunately
>this research has been buried since his disappearance....and several of his
>closest friends has also met with "accidents" since then (both within
>Tsolyanu and abroad). I hope to include an excerpt from his writings in the
>Book of the Heresiarchs.

I'll see if Lady Kalusu hiViridame (my best contact within the Temple of Ksarul)
can get a copy of Tsemel Ni'ur's work. It will be difficult -- the Council of 
the Priesthoods is thorough.

>>As for conversion "by the sword," I tend to doubt there was a lot of that.Most
>>conversion en-masse seems more due to economics and political opportunism.

>I would agree entirely -- except that I think all three factors were
>strongly in play. The War between Vimuhla and Ksarul worshippers is a case
>in point (I hope) of mass conversion (or attempted conversion...) under
>extreme political and social duress.

>>>>What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a
>>>>situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the
>>>>One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the
>>>>mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of
>>>>Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in
>>>>the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] 
>>>>The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes,
>>>>only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could
>>>>be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane!

>>The secret citadel of Onchash Chairan rather 
>>parallels the sect started by Ssraminesh mra Kutaya. [By the bye, how did you 
>>happen upon Ssraminesh? Did I mention him to you? It's too much to imagine 
>>that you coincidentally came upon him by yourself!]

>I am afraid that it was pure coincidence. Unless I accidentally read the
>name in one of the official Tekumel publications (very possible) -- I do not
>remember you mentioning it to me (in our correspondence). Please tell me a
>little more about your Ssraminesh, I am eager to learn more about him!

Sraminesh mra Kutaya has neot been mentioned in any of my works, as far as I 
recall. Anybody remember seeing his name before? He lived in the First 
Millennium of the Bednalljan Lords of the South, sometime shortly after the 
founding of the city of Purdanim. He is rather a shadowy figure who may fore-
shadow the Blasphemous Accelerators and the Wizard Metallja. His followers were 
feared as assassins and mercenaries. They also seem to have had access to some 
sort of cache of weapons and machines of the Great Ancients, including a 
"trapped" Interfogulator which is now said to belong to Lord Sanjesh hiKirisaya 
and is stored in his house in Usenanu. The thing is decidedly dangerous. He can 
perhaps be persuaded to describe the functions of this type of machine. 
Sraminesh used his skills and his machines to transport himself and his chief 
adherents (said to number 9) out of Purdanim just before the Imperial troops 
made rather a clean and ugly sweep of them. Some island in the southern seas on 
the far side of Tekumel was their supposed destination (resting place?). I can't
recall the name of it now.

Tekunu will gladly provide more on Onchash Chairan and the Accelerators. 
 
>>>>But what if the deities are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic
>>>>entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their
>>>>worshippers? These cookie-cutter deities "representing" some elemental
>>>>attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge,
>>>>apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting.

>>Hmm. You are closer than you think. 

>In several cases in my expeditions on Tekumel I have encountered scholars
>and priests who have delved into the "deep spirituality"(hidden doctrines)
>of the Engsvanyali Dieties. Perhaps a visit to Hmakuyal and Sunuz would be
>in order! Do you have any suggestions on how to get to these cities/sites. I
>eally do not know what the "current" situation in Livyanu is -- aside from
>the "false plague" and Mu'ugalavyani occupation!

The plague killed about three quarters of the Livyani population. It was a 
terrible catastrophe. The town of Sunuz is still held by the Red Hats, although 
I am sure they haven't a clue about the real nature of the old town and what 
lies beneath it. Hmakuyal is easier to reach -- it's a great big volcanic "sink"
in southwestern Tsolyanu, and anybody can show you the way. The ruins are caves 
built into the canyon walls. Tourists get within a certain distance and are then
stopped. Pilgrims get farther and are shunted off to perform religious rituals 
at some of the famous cave-shrines. Those who are true thinkers are sometimes --
rarely -- invited in for discussions. In your case, with your interest in 
heretics and unorthodox thinking, you might want to be a little cautious.
 
>>>>My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an
>>>>"outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities.
>>>>Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated
>>>>over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate
>>>>Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive Pariah cults have always been in the
>>>>"center" of Tekumelyani societies - guiding the course of events like
>>>>puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special"
>>>>knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for
>>>>the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic
>>>>frenzy of liberation and obliteration.

>>Don't give all the secrets of Tekumel away, dammit! There are hints and clues 
>>to the powers of these sects in various places in Tekumel literature. Watch 
>>for the signposts pointing to Coming Events...
 
>You have my word, no secrets given away. (not that I have many, mind you!)
>But I must inquire, where will we be seeing these signposts? Is the Livyani
>Plague a precursor to something MUCH LARGER? (I suspect that it is!) Who was
>behind the false plague?

You are correct. The plague was an accident, in a way, but it was also part of a
major plot that involves all sorts of high persons.


>>>>Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle
>>>>of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of
>>>>myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah
>>>>Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern
>>>>"name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished",
>>>>both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who
>>>>"imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!)

I doubt whether Ksarul is a name for the Goddess. There are too many conflicts 
between them.

>I stand corrected. What I may have meant to say is that the Ksarul-myth is
>drawn out of a historico-social context in which SOME elements of the
>Pariah-myths were inserted (perhaps unconsciously) by the adherents of the
>"new" faith. The Emergence of Ksarul in the Bednalljan Period is, by my
>estimation, not "just" a coincidence of history -- I think the Bednalljans
>were LED to Ksarul by forces/beings that they did not fully understand nor
>appreciate. (More on this in the Tipika Hereziark'a) I would however love to
>get my hands on some of the Inner Texts -- who is the best source in
>Tsolyanu for this? Deragu hiFershena?

I think so. There may be still greater scholars, but I can't think of any. 

>>>>Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah
>>>>Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled"
>>>>upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? 

You are right. The appearance of the One Other in the Lament to the Wheel of 
Black and other epics of Dormoron Plain do NOT say how they were contacted and 
why Pavar missed putting any mention of them into his Pandects.

>>Probably the Pariah Deities were indeed "pre-Pavar" and even"pre-Ksarul" in 
>>his
>>Bednalljan form. The Index of the Inquisition is fairly inefficient compared 
>>to
>>the Palace of the Priesthoods in Bey Su, which has seen to the sequestering of
>>ANYTHING relating to the Pariah Deities to the "locked stacks."

>What was the first recorded "contact" with the Pariah Dieties? Who would be
>the most likely "modern adherents" to the Pariah faith. (i.e. who is good
>"heretic" material?) What of the religious life of the Three States of the
>Triangle? Those guys are usually relegated by standard histories to "getting
>their a---s kicked by the Nluss Dragon Warriors).

There is a LOT more to it. But records are missing and destroyed, and the great 
Missuma River has flooded their palaces with mud. Then when Ganga sank, the 
whole area was flooded: as the tectonic plates of the north rose to turn the Sea
of Yan Kor into what is now the Desert of Sighs, the south sank, rose, and sank 
again. It is very hard finding much about the Three States of the Triangle now. 
We need some serious archaeology.

>There must have been a
>little more to them than that! I should note that some fascinating
>archeological sites were "discovered" recently in the swamps north of Penom
>that would indicate some level of organized worship of the Pariah Dieities.
>Even more ominous, some conjecture has been advanced to indicate that the
>Ssu and/Hlyuss have had "contact" with the Goddess of the Pale Bone as late
>as the fall of the Three States of the Triangle. It's still too early to
>tell, but increased activities/forays into Tsolyanu have been reported as
>far west as Penom.

As late as yesterday, actually. The Ssu and the Hluss are rather active in the 
Zu'ur trade and in the grand plot against humanity that seems to be brewing.
 
>Who currently "watches over" the proscribed texts? When was the last major
>action taken against the Pariah Dieities' worshippers. If memory serves,
>wasn't it Trankolel I (3rd Seal Emporer???) who led his armies against the
>minions of the One Other? What precipitated this action? A Resurgence in the
>"Old Faith"?

Yes, it was he. His advisors reported that the south would return to the worship
of the Pariah Deities if something were not done. The Goddess was apparently 
passing out favours...
 
>>>>Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search
>>>>Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the
>>>>nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent
>>>>generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological  consolidation.
>>>>That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to
>>>>maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted
>>>>themselves over the next centuries? 

>>Again, you could be correct.You are certainly subtle enough to be a Tekumelani
>>yourself! Anybody VISIT the town of Sunuz recently? Maybe this would provide a
>>good adventure -- in a recently plague-ridden land now occupied by 
>>Mu'ugalavyani troops... 

>If I could get some advice on how to get past the Mu'ugalavyani -- I just
>might pay a visit to SUNUZ. Perhaps via Nexal-Gate or tubeway car...Anybody
>got any spare Navigation Disks? What is currently the situation there in
>Livyanu? Has the Plague passed over? Why was it "artificial"? Who was behind
>it then? Has the Forbidden City of Dlash been "breached" by Mu'ugalavyani
>legions? My favorite nation has always been Livyanu -- I hate to see fall on
>such hard times!

Sunuz is perhaps too dangerous, although the daughter of the wizard Eyloa is now
leading the resistance against the Mu'ugalavyani. If anybody can get you to the 
town, she can. She is now called "Fire-Face" because of the plague scars she 
bears, and some of the underclass in Tsamra can point you to her. And no, Dlash 
was never taken by the Red Hats. They made a bargain with the Shen not to go 
much farther south than Tsamra, although they have breached this here and there.
Dlash is completely ignored -- nobody wants to risk the wrath of certain ones 
who have access to Tekumel there.

>What sort of shared semantic or mythic-patterns do we find in source texts
>(shared iconography?). Is there a "Rosetta Stone"-like treatise available in
>Tsolyanu on this theological/conceptual "connection"? My own research has
>dug up, in addition to the work I already mentioned, several Classical
>Engsvanyali texts -- purporting to be "grammars" of some very odd dialects
>of Duru'ob... as well as an Ai Che grammar by Kaijda hi'Gessumai of Purdimal
>published during the reign of "The Spider" (Nriqu??) Emperor (only known
>extant copy held by the Temple of Ksarul in that city)

I would have to see this grammar of Ai CHe to determine its reliability. Most of
the materials done on this far northeastern language are as weird as early 
English grammars of American Indian languages.

>All works draw on
>far older sources --some of which may well prove apocryphal. The most
>interesting material, however, may be some alledged "translations" (in
>Bednalljan Salarvyani) on Mihalli texts (Titles include: The Pandect of
>Des'as'ura and The Codex of the Renderer of Veils  (an odd combination of
>poetry and rituals related to "other planar voyages"). I will pass my
>research along to you and the rest of this group as time permits.

Fine. Love to see it.

>>>>How about Llyani -- which was codified and
>>>>used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were
>>>>transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar
>>>>sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable!

>>Don't be too harsh on him. He did manage a reasonable amalgamation of the data
>>-and he solved a lot of theological inconsistencies that had been bothering 
>>the scholars of the First Imperium. 

>I have/had no intention of laying into the old guy, I think Pavar was a
>major figure in the emergence of a coherent(partailly), institutional
>framework for religious worship. Like all good pupils, I have studied the
>Scrolls of Pavar well. I only press the point that he "missed", whether
>intentionally or not, some major aspects of the theology of the
>Gods(Orthodox and otherwise). Pavar was a swell guy -- and the Golden Age of
>Engsvan hla Ganga was a result!

>>>>I am
>>>>interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in
>>>>Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the
>>>>"consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all,
>>>>all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative
>>>>underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over
>>>>four years!

>>You are certainly welcome to investigate this part of Tekumelani religion. If 
>>you can find out more about the Pariah Deities, I should be very interested to
>>see it. Tsolyani history and scholarship is NOT interested (openly) in the 
>>Pariah Deities, as said above, but there are a few scholars here and there.

>I will get portions of the Book of the Heresiarchs(probably those dealing
>with the Brotherhhod of the One True Shadow) out to the group for
>consideration as soon as possible.

>>I can't guarantee that your book will work as "real" Tekumel. But it will 
>>certainly be interesting, even if purely heretical.You might make a pilgrimage
>>to the city of Hmakuyal;there are scholars there with interests like yours.Ask
>>for a scholar-priest named Deragu hiFershena. He may be there or in Bey Su. He
>>has ideas about the Pariah Deities that mesh with yours in some ways.

>He sounds like a scholar I would enjoy meeting with. Please give me some
>more particulars about him (such as his physical description, personal
>habits/tastes, clan, and most recent whereabouts). What can you tell me of
>Hmakuyal -- I only know that it is the site of several important shrines to
>Ksaruland now a set of "ruins"! I need travel directions! Being sequestered
>in Bey Su until I can get Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa's notes and scholarly
>materials released has put a definite crimp in my travel plans. Perhaps I
>should just let by well connection clan brothers take over and hit the road
>to Hmakuyal/Sunuz!

Deragu is a rather elegant man, good physique, late thirties or early forties, 
thick head of hair, dark circles under his eyes (giving him an "owl-eyed" look),
deep and resoant voice with strong hints of a "Bey Su" accent. He has one wife 
and had two children, both of whom died in a boating accident a few years ago. 
He is now pursuing a young noblewoman in Bey Su, but I don't know her name. His 
interests in Other Planar, historical, and Pariah Deity matters are legendary. I
think you will like him. 

I must get this off! We're taking up more disc space than a political 
convention! More later.

------
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//15
[Moderator's Note:  Paul Snow writes from England to the group as a whole  ]

Hi,
	A while ago I set a story in Kamore in the north of Tsolyanu.  I 
am thinking of writing this up for The Eye of Allseeing Wonder but before 
I can be happy with it I would like to improve the description of the 
area around the town.

	So - does anyone have any ideas what the landscape is like in the
north of Tsolyanu?  The Atkolel heights lie to the West and the mountains
lie to the East. (Can't remember what the peak there is called) What is it
like in the middle.  I used ideas of rolling hills and downland originally
but that is drawing on English countryside not Tekumel landscapes. 

So. Comments?

-------
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//16
[Moderator's note:  Keith (Sanjesh hiKirisaya) responds to Paul's Komore  ]
[                   question                                              ]

This is in response to the request for information about the area around 
Komore.  This is taken directly from the northwest frontier gazzeteer.

The area around Komore is rich agricultural land, with small agricultural 
villages scattered across the hex.  Here again, the western clans that 
are involved in agriculture own large portions of this hex, as do several 
of the temples that are stronger in the west

Komore:  This is a large walled sakbe road town.  It functions as a 
marketplace for the fruits and other produce grown in the surrounding 
areas.

Interesting sights near Komore:

Fort Nishu'va and Fort Rue'lu These are guard towers located in very 
defensible positions, consisting of a 3-4 story tower durrounded by 
a ring wall with a single gate.

Rumusu Peak  This is simply a high hill.  Fort Rue'le is located on 
this hilltop.

River of white salt.  This is a brackish river that seems to spring out 
of the side of Rumusu peak and flows away east.

The shores of the river are crusted with salt deposits, thus giving the 
river it's name.

Plateau of Ke'ttusesh  This is a fairly nondescript plateau that rises 
out of the surrounding aggricultural terrain.

That is the hex of Komore'.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//17
[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker responds to Paul's question about    ]
[                   Komore                                                ]

Hi back!

The landscape around Komore is complex. It is only about 100 Tsan southeast to 
the edge of the Swamps that surround old Purdimal. These are rather like fens: 
turgid, brown water, tall rushes and dismal little crooked trees, groves of 
taller trees, and here and there a copse of the black-leaved Tiu-trees (rather 
like spruces or pines) that are common in the northlands. Here and there are 
patches of the deadly Food of the Ssu and less pleasant plants.

Once the Sakbe Road leaves the swamps, it rises along a spur of hills 
northwestward to the more arid plateau upon which Komore stands. There are low 
hills and broad valleys here, watered poorly by run-off from the great mountain 
massif to the east, the mighty Thenu Thendraya Peak, one of the tallest single 
peaks on Tekumel. Go east from Komore, and you come to swiftly rising foothills,
thento cliffs and gorges, then to higher peaks, and finally to the triangular 
needle of Thenu Thendraya itself.

Go north from Komore and you enter more and more arid land that slopes gradually
downhill to te edge of the Desert of Sighs. Plants here are sparse, more like 
cacti, with gnarled and stunted desert trees here and there in a rocky, sandy, 
red-brown landscape. To the east of Komore lie better lands: the lain south of 
mighty Khirgar, stretching west to Si'is and Tu'unmra and down to Mrelu. Crops 
grow well here: reddish Dna-grain, Dmi-root, Dle-fruit orchards, and a variety 
of vegetables and other fruits.

The people of Komore (pronounced "Ko-mo-RAY") are sturdy agriculturalists, 
clannish and a little reserved, not as warlike as the Khirgari, not as inward-
looking and silent as the residents of the Swamps around Purdimal, not as 
boisterous as the reddish-complected (Mu'ugalavyani-related) folk of Si'is and 
the Atkolel Heights, nor as serious and solemn as the border peoples of Paya 
Gupa, with their endless devotions to Lord Thumis. Komore has a reputation for 
solidity and reliability. There are minerals to be mined in the area, farm 
products, herds of Hma and Hmelu and Chlen to be pastured on the slopes to the 
east, wines to be made in vineyards on the higher slopes of the Thenu Thendraya 
range, with transport clans very prominent, and a certain number of ancient 
desert-related clans as well. Komore is not known as the headquarters for any 
particular religious sect: all 20 temples of the gods are found within its dust-
red stone walls, and its broad streets are home to people of many sects and 
nationalities. One sees many Pe Choi here, as well as Pachi Lei refugees (now 
especially since the Mu'ugalavyani took Pan Chaka early in Emperor Dhich'une's 
reign), various desert tribesemen who speak in unintelligible Milumanyani 
dialects, various Yan Koryani merchants, and others.

THe city is not large, but it is well run. The governor is a woman: Lady Nia 
hiVekkuma, of the Green Malachite Clan, 33 years old, and a devotee of Lady 
Dlamelish, and quite pretty (though not "beautiful": she is too slender and tall
for that). Her tastes run to secret orgies and adolescent males. She is, 
however, a good administrator and has never been known to fail in her tasks. Her
clan is powerful in Komore because of nearby deposits of its sacred stone: 
malachite.

The only other person I know from Komore is a Kasi in the Storm of Fire Legion 
(21st MI), whose name is Chiyoz hiZhotlu'e (a Milumanayani lineage of no 
stature). He is perhaps 35 years old, a member of the White Crystal clan, and 
devoted to Lord Chiteng. He is sturdy, stocky, round-headed with almost no neck,
blinks continually, and mean. He was the officer of a contingent of troops that 
fought in the northern war against Yan Kor. I think he has returned home by now.
No idea whether he has a family or not. In Milumanaya he was always buying and 
selling Milumanayani prisoners, which fastidious Tsolyani consider to be a VERY 
low thing to do. Slavers are not popular in the Empire. Chiyoz was not well 
liked by his troops, but he was a tenacious fighter.

I hope this helps a bit.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//18
[Moderator's Note:  This is a response to Kieth's message about Komore    ]
[                   from Professor Barker.                                ]

>This is in response to the request for information about the area around 
>Komore.  This is taken directly from the northwest frontier gazzeteer.

Lord Sanjesh is essentially correct. I don't have a copy of the northwestern 
maps and gazetteer handy, or I could look these items up and comment in detail.

>The area around Komore is rich agricultural land, with small agricultural 
>villages scattered across the hex.  Here again, the western clans that 
>are involved in agriculture own large portions of this hex, as do several 
>of the temples that are stronger in the west

The really good agricultural land lies to the west of Komore, downtowards Si'is 
and Hauma. 

>Komore:  This is a large walled sakbe road town.  It functions as a 
>marketplace for the fruits and other produce grown in the surrounding 
>areas.

>Interesting sights near Komore:

>Fort Nishu'va and Fort Rue'lu These are guard towers located in very 
>defensible positions, consisting of a 3-4 story tower surrounded by 
>a ring wall with a single gate.

Not major fortifications, as Lord Sanjesh indicates. Just watchtowers against 
Milumanayani incursions. I am wondering whether the "'" are meant to be glottal 
stops (as in Hru'u and Dhich'une) or whether they were meant to be accents on 
the preceding vowels. I'll have to dredge out copies of the old NW frontier 
maps. 
 
>Rumusu Peak  This is simply a high hill.  Fort Rue'le is located on 
>this hilltop.

This is in the northern part of the hex on the Zocchi map (#4409). The path up 
to the tower is steep and stony, as I recall, and much overgrown with brambles 
and thorn plants. 
 
>River of white salt.  This is a brackish river that seems to spring out 
>of the side of Rumusu peak and flows away east.

Again, in the northern part of the hex, as I dimly recall. The edge of the 
Desert of Sighs is not a fun place.

>The shores of the river are crusted with salt deposits, thus giving the 
>river it's name.

Another name, used by the Milumanayani Tribesmen, is "The River of White 
Thirst." Farther down in its course, the river water is so salty as to be 
poisonous.
 
>Plateau of Ke'ttusesh  This is a fairly nondescript plateau that rises 
>out of the surrounding agricultural terrain. 

(I am sure the "'" in this name is an acute accent on the preceding "e.")

This is one of the minor plateaus I mentioned in my letter. I can't think of 
much to say about it. The Tsolyani were rather hoping that if the Yan Koryani 
army came this way, they could be held off by determined troops at the top of 
the decline leading down to the north. As somebody gently pointed out, all the 
enemy had to do was to go around and take another route. Several slopes lead up 
to the top of the plateau. There was some thought of adding to Komore's 
fortifications, but I don't recall that anything much was done. The war was 
mainly fought farther west, at the Atkolel Heights, and then the Tsolyani took 
the offensive and moved up through Pijjena to Kai, etc. The Baron's forces 
couldn't bring enough water and supplies to march down through the terrible 
Desert of Sighs.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//19
[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker answers  Mark Eggert's question about   ]
[                  the third Tekumel novel.                                 ]

>What news of the third novel?

Alas, the most recent version was lost when my computer hard drive went down. 
The addition of an external iomega drive to my SCSI chain was just too much, and
all I ended with was a blank disc icon with a question mark in the middle: no 
partitions, no data, no files. I have been putting pieces back on as I find them
on my external floppies. I do have a version of the novel that dates from last 
year, and it is pretty complete: 23 chapters. It doesn't have my latest changes 
on it, however. Oh well, one can always admit that many of those changes were 
not too good anyhow. Most were in response to my players, who really didn't like
the third novel that much and had lots of requests to change things. Now I have 
to get to work and finish the damned thing. -- If I don't get too depressed over
various dismal causes that cannot be explained here. I'll try.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//20
[Moderator's Note:  We now have over 30 members on the list!  Bob Dushay  ]
[                   asks the professor a question about Salarvya.         ]

>I am running a campaign in Salarvya, and I will soon have my party
>moving into the eastern part of the country.  I understand that Salarvya
>is virtually an empire in name only.  However, what are the borders
>of the states that make it up?  What are the names of the states, and
>who rules them?  How much do they acknowledge the overlordship of 
>Tsatsayagga?  Thanks for any information on this.

The borders of the "family territories" of Salarvya have never really been 
worked out, least of all by the Salarvyani themselves. There are no FORMAL 
boundaries. The Salarvyani "states" are really clusters of families/clans around
stronger urban regions. See the (Zocchi edition) of the "Sourcebook," Sec. 
1.735, p. 66 ff.. Do you have this?  There is a paragraph there listing the 
great "families" and the rough areas they control. There is more on pp. 74-75. 
If you do not have the "Sourcebook," one of us could copy out the relevant 
portions for you by e-mail.

Why would anybody WANT to adventure in Salarvya? Your players must truly be 
heroes! The place is practically in a continuous state of civil insurrection 
these days, although the western "families" (under the leadership of Koyluga) 
have managed to cooperate in sending expeditions and scouting probes into 
Tsolyanu through the Gilraya Forests to see how "soft" and "spongy" the Tsolyani
have become, now that they are fighting their own civil war with all the 
factions against Emperor Dhich'une! The nicest region in Salarvya is way out 
east: Jaekanta, under the Shiggashko'onmu lineage. They are so far from 
Tsatsayagga that they hardly know the place exists. Which is much better for 
them.

I wonder if Lord Tekunu hiQolyelmu could scan and e-mail his adventure notes for
the voyage along the coast of Salarvya that we took last year? This would be a 
lot of work for him, but perhaps he could get it scanned at Kinko's and then 
just "enclose" a file from a disc. I hesitate to ask him -- he's so busy. He 
might also be able to skim the cultural/geographic facts from his notes and send
those along. ???

Regards!

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//21
[Moderator's Note:  Paul Snow sends greetings to the list and asks a  ]
[                   question.  (Some of which is elaborated on in an  ]
[                   article I am transcribing this very instant, but  ]
[                   there is much more to say on the subject.         ]

Greetings, oh mighty and excellent scholars,

	I would like some opinions on the following matters.  How do the
inimical alien races of Tekumel worship the mighty powers that the humans
dress up as gods?  The Gods are well known for the inscrutability and
strangeness but so are those dangerous aliens.  Is this a help or
hindrance to a hluss? Are the Hluss et al. worshippers of Ksarulness as
they need power to regain their glory? 

Also, magic in the Five Empires has become owned by the temples because 
they grabbed the intellectual property rights to some useful skills.  If 
you take the religious dressing out of magic, what bag of magical tools 
does this leave the enemy races to play with. Are they good at magic?  Do 
their minds work in the right way to pull through the energy from the 
void?  Is their magical research better because it has been liberated from 
religious dogma?

We need to know because they are out there waiting for our defences to slip.

Paul Snow

(Tekumel DM - desperately in need of a game and character name alias)

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//22
[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker responds to Paul's Question.     ]

Dear Paul,

You asked for a Tekumel "identity?" Would Nikun hiSayodla suit you? He is the 
son of Jerus hiSayodla, of the Blue hood clan, High Scholar Priest of Jaikalor. 
Nikun is about 24 years old, unmarried, oldest of 3 children, and a budding 
priest in the Temple of Lord Ksarul. He is intelligent, reasonably good looking,
popular with the young ladies in his temple, and respected by his peers. Nikun 
doesn't mind having a "player character" using him as an "identity," although he
is not sure he believes in such beings.

>	I would like some opinions on the following matters.  How do the
>inimical alien races of Tekumel worship the mighty powers that the humans
>dress up as gods?  The Gods are well known for the inscrutability and
>strangeness but so are those dangerous aliens.  Is this a help or
>hindrance to a hluss? Are the Hluss et al. worshippers of Ksarulness as
>they need power to regain their glory?

The gods of the "friendly" races have been tailored to fit Pavar's theology to 
some extent. The Pe Choi, the Shen, etc. have "light/dark" or "stable/change" or
some other dichotomy that more or less suits. The Tinaliya are, however, 
monotheists with no interest in "gods." They still use magic. The hostile races 
(Hluss, Ssu, Shunned Ones) have deities of their own. Magic is thus NOT 
controlled by the gods or even very relevant to them: spells are probes or 
thrusts that reach through the Planes to draw power through into Tekumel's 
world. The spell is then manifested according to a "gestalt": a "circuit board" 
(rather like a computer programme, by analogy). The spell is thus tailored to 
fit the theology of the temple or deity its creators follow. The temples, over 
the millennia, have developed "ladders" of spells, spell teaching methods, spell
workbooks -- all sorts of methods of keeping their magic safely THEIRS. The same
must be true of the Ssu or the Hluss. Quite obviously, these races do not care a
whit for Ksarul or Sarku or any of the human deities. Not even for the dreaded 
Pariah Deities. It is not possible to talk to these races about "gods" or 
"magic" because communication is impossible, lacking, or always refused. As far 
as I know, there have been NO exceptions. Oh, I have had referees tell me that 
their favourite player character has a "pet" Ssu or a "tame" Hluss, who is a 
rebel against his/her/its own people and who tells them all sorts of dire 
secrets. I have sorrowfully had to reply that "their" Tekumel is no longer "my" 
Tekumel: this cannot happen on "my" Tekumel. Of course, if these  good folk have
bought the game, they are welcome to modify its parameters to suit themselves --
as far as I care at that point, they can have legions of dancing Ssu in pink 
Tutus -- but it then is no longer on the same plane of discussion as "my" 
Tekumel. All I can do is stand and wave goodbye...

Magic has indeed been grabbed by the temples. Who else can successfully teach, 
practice, and use such dangerous powers? There can be very few "loose" wizards 
(or scientists) on any world. King Arthur always kept Merlin around the castle -
- and those who developed the atomic bomb or deadly biological weapons are not 
likely to be let go free to wander around and possibly peddle their wares 
elsewhere, eh?

>Also, magic in the Five Empires has become owned by the temples because 
>they grabbed the intellectual property rights to some useful skills.  If 
>you take the religious dressing out of magic, what bag of magical tools 
>does this leave the enemy races to play with. Are they good at magic?  Do 
>their minds work in the right way to pull through the energy from the 
>void?  Is their magical research better because it has been liberated from 
>religious dogma?

The religious "dressing" is really irrelevant to Tekumelani "magic," just as 
one's nationality is irrelevant to operating an electric circuitboard. Yes, the 
Ssu, the Hluss, and the Shunned Ones are good at magic. They have psychic 
abilities and powers of learning. Some say that somehow, through intermediate 
neutral races, the hostile races may have had something to do with teaching this
kind of "magic" to humankind in the first place ...??? 

I am puzzled by your suggestion that "liberation from religious dogma" could 
possibly make "magic" "better" (or "worse?"). I don't see a real connection. One
might jokingly ask whether Catholic Fathers can successfully use an electric 
razor as well as atheists can? Hmm? Tekumel is a strongly religious place, but 
the nature of magic is almost as "irreligious" as one can find. It works. It can
be "dressed up" in a variety of costumes, but it still works. Another analogy is
that of script (the alphabet): one can write Chinese in Roman script or in its 
own character, and it is still Chinese. Unlike many roleplaying games and 
"mythos," the basis of magic is not at all theological on Tekumel. It is very 
much dressed up to look like it, but look closely...

>We need to know because they are out there waiting for our defences to slip.

You are quite right. They ARE out there. -- And just wait until the Pariah 
Deities get into the act! The Hluss and the Ssu are very much afraid of THEM.
 
Let me know if Nikun hiSayodla suits your idiom. If he doesn't, I will scout 
about for somebody else.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//23
[Moderator's Note:  A new list member further commented on the Pariah  ]
[                   Gods, and magic topic and is answered by Professor ]
[                   Barker.                                            ]
[>>> = Original Question from Paul Snow                           ]
[>>  = Professor Barker's Answer to Paul                          ]
[>   = New posings from Dermot Bolton                             ]
[    = Professor Barker's Response                                ]

>>The religious "dressing" is really irrelevant to Tekumelani "magic," 
>>just as one's nationality is irrelevant to operating an electric 
>>circuitboard. Yes, the Ssu, the Hluss, and the Shunned Ones are good 
>>at magic. They have psychic abilities and powers of learning. Some say 
>>that somehow, through intermediate neutral races, the hostile races may 
>>have had something to do with teaching this kind of "magic" to humankind 
>>in the first place ...???  I am puzzled by your suggestion that "liberation 
>>from religious dogma" could possibly make "magic" "better" (or "worse?"). 
>>I don't see a real connection. One might jokingly ask whether Catholic 
>>Fathers can successfully use an electric razor as well as atheists can? 
>>Hmm? Tekumel is a strongly religious place, but the nature of magic is 
>>almost as "irreligious" as one can find. It works. It can be "dressed 
>>up" in a variety of costumes, but it still works. Another analogy is 
>>that of script (the alphabet): one can write Chinese in Roman script or 
>>in its  own character, and it is still Chinese. Unlike many roleplaying 
>>games and "mythos," the basis of magic is not at all theological on 
>>Tekumel. It is very much dressed up to look like it, but look closely...
> 
>So considering that magic is not as rigid an art as the temples would have
>us think, is there scope for worthy sorcerers to devise magics of their own? 

Yes. This is allowed for in the Gardasiyal rules. In "real life" on Tekumel, it 
takes years of experimentation, with lots of mistakes and sometimes sad results.
(Read the Book of Ebon Bindings!) 

>Obviously if a mage were to create a new formula or "spell" he would have 
>to seek approval from the temple even to use it.  I imagine the political 
>wrangles involved could be quite interesting, and knowing the Tsolyani the 
>chances of any recogintion or propogation of the spell could take centuries 
>or it may even just get left in the vaults.

All of these results are possible. If the spell is not too innovative, it is 
usually added as a "variant" to the old spell nearest to it in content and 
effect. If it is really new and different, it may be secreted away in a vault 
somewhere -- as people have said of such "inventions" on our world as a razor 
blade that never gets dull, an automobile that uses only a thimblefull of fuel 
per thousand kilometres, etc. These may be "fables," or there may be some truth 
to them...
> 
>I wonder how many 'hidden' magics have been wrought over the millennia and 
>what sort of magic knowledge resides in the deeper catacombs of the temples 
>of Ksarul and Thumis.  The 'preserver of knowledge' phrase may well mean a 
>hoarder of secrets as much as anything else.  And I'd bet my last qirgal 
>that the spells listed in the published tomes are but a small fraction of 
>the sum of enchantments known.

You are absolutely correct. As readers of the Zocchi rulebook ("Swords and 
Glory," vol. 2) and "Gardasiyal" know, many spell variants were omitted in the 
latter -- mostly because they were simply extensions of some listed spell (e.g. 
a 50 foot range instead of a 30 foot range). There are, however, various really 
different spells that could have been added. Many of these were NOT included 
because their results are unpredictable and "shaky": like a new type of grenade 
that may explode in the thrower's hand. Others didn't suit the balance of the 
"game" very well and would have been problematic for gamers and referees. In 
fact, however, almost all of the IMPORTANT spells got into "Gardasiyal." I doubt
whether players will require any more spells. I myself have always been against 
"Super Killer" spells because they unbalance the game too much. If a new spell 
is needed, and if the referee allows "invention" and "spell research," however, 
it may be possible to send it to the Blue Room where people can download it and 
use it optionally in their games. The goal is to walk a fine line between 
players who are too helpless and players whose mighty spells make them so 
powerful that warriors are useless, and the referee has to continually escalate 
his "monsters" and perils in order to keep control of the game.

But this is "game talk." I'd rather talk Tekumel.
 
>>>We need to know because they are out there waiting for our defences to 
>>>slip.

>>You are quite right. They ARE out there. -- And just wait until the Pariah
>>Deities get into the act! The Hluss and the Ssu are very much afraid of 
>>THEM.
> 
>*Gulp!*  I had some difficulty (and too little time) understanding the 
>recent spate of Pariah god material.  Although I'm not sure I really want to 
>know too much anyway, for the good of my spirit-soul.  However a summary of 
>the nature of the three, their goals, their spheres of influence and aims of 
>their worshippers would be most helpful.

There will be more. She Who Cannot be Named is now apparently interested in 
Tekumel's sector of interdimensional space-time. 

>As a scholar of Ai Che (pesky learning spheres!) and considering my 
>encounters with their cultists in the past (the memory of the Jalush still 
>sends shivers down my spine) I feel such knowledge would be efficacious in 
>resolving future conflicts.

Ai Che is such a pesky language. I myself am not enamoured of tone languages. So
much has also been concealed under acres of tribal religion and "superstititon,"
too, that it's hard to winnow out the facts from the fancies.

>Dermot
>aka.  The most noble Treshkoi hiVrazhimu, Scion of the Clan of Golden 
>Sunburst, Imperial Keeper of the Mysteries of the Ancients (Aircar 
>division), etc.
>[remaining titles left out to save bandwidth  :-)  }

Good luck! Aircars have a bad habit of crashing for reasons we no longer can 
fathom. 

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//24
[Moderator's note:  Paul has some more to say about magic and the temples. ]
[Administrative:  I have just finished transcribing an article about the   ]
[                 temple of Thumis, from a very old Tekumel Journal.  I am ]
[                 in the final stages of proofreading and hope to have it  ]
[                 on the ftp site sometime over the weekend (most likely   ]
[                 Sunday evening).  If any of you have the old Journals, or]
[                 any other Tekumel stuff that you can transcribe, please  ]
[                 contact me for guidelines on writing.  I have set up some]
[                 basic info on how to handle diacritical marks, etc.  The ]
[                 more that volunteer, the more stuff we'll have on the ftp]
[                 site.                                                    ]

[>>  = Professor Barker's original reply ]
[>   = Paul' new questions.              ]
[    = Professor Barker's reply          ]

>>Would Nikun hiSayodla suit you? He is the 
>>son of Jerus hiSayodla, of the Blue hood clan, High Scholar Priest of 
>Jaikalor.
>>Nikun is about 24 years old, unmarried, oldest of 3 children, and a budding 
>>priest in the Temple of Lord Ksarul.He is intelligent, reasonably good 
>looking,
>>popular with the young ladies in his temple, and respected by his peers. 

>Thank you very much.  I would be delighted to don the mantle of 
>Nikun hi Sayodla of the Blue Hood clan.  However, for my identity to be 
>truly defined I must , like any Tsolyani, tie my existence to the honour 
>and prestige of the Clan.  What do I know about the Blue Hood clan?  

It is a solid, upper or medium clan, related to the Clan of the Purple Gem, and 
based in a number of large cities throughout the central Empire. It is 
numerically small and local, but it is honourable and has a number of members 
who are officers, priests, and administrators in Ksarul/Gruganu enterprises and 
some in those of Hru'u/Wuru.

>would guess that there are many Ksarul worshippers around me and perhaps   
>the Hood has hidden many of the clan's secret plans.  Is it true that my 
>uncle Arksa is an initiate to some of the forbidden secrets of our 
>temple and also to the brotherhood who name themselves - the Ndalu?

You are welcome to inquire from your clan uncle -- Arksa hiVayka is now retired 
and stays out of temple affairs, but he may indeed know some things. If he ever 
becomes senile enough to tell you some of those things, he -- and you -- will 
probably disappear, quietly and permanently. Uncle Arksa is too wise to give out
any of the Ndalu Clan's dark secrets.  

>>I am puzzled by your suggestion that "liberation from religious dogma" could 
>>possibly make "magic" "better" (or "worse?"). I don't see a real connection.

>Following the computer, programs et al. analogy, I was thinking
>that the best computer might be made by taking one item from this
>manufacturer, this one from another and that one from some other. 
>However, the clash of copyrights, patents and trademarks stops you making
>the best possible computer from the resources.  If in the case of magic
>from temples, they all have _all_ the components but _only_ the dressed up
>appearance is different (the box?) then I can see that they are not
>restricted by their beliefs in using the tool of magic.  So all projectile
>bolts are just of "energy" - but the bolts of Vimuhla look like flame? etc
>etc.  It is a useful point to know.

You are essentially correct. The differences are those of the size, shape, and 
details of the "spell conduit" through which the energy flows and from which it 
is manifested. In many cases, it is rather like trying to run Mac programmes on 
a PC or vice-versa -- or American software on platforms developed in other 
countries. It CAN be done, but it is complex and too involved for most computer 
users (like me!). 

>>One might jokingly ask whether Catholic Fathers can successfully use an 
>>electric razor as well as atheists can? Hmm? 

>And as a light hearted reply, rubber* is a wonderful substance
>that can have many uses.  However Catholic Fathers object to some of them
>(well, at least one) because of their beliefs - even though rubber is only
>technology and a tool.  Beliefs can restrict technology or its development
>as current debates on genetic engineering etc show. However, of course
>no  one would say that writing is a bad thing.  
>( * - OK - latex, I know)

Right. There are some similar limitations on the uses of spell powers on Tekumel
as well. For instance, the Temple of Sarku is not interested in spells that 
improve the local rainfall, although Lady Avanthe's people find this very 
important and useful. (Ever shot one of the Undead with a spell of 
Revivification? He will HATE you ...)

>In summary, can we say that magic is so prevalent and so widely 
>used on Tekumel that its use is as contentious as the use of reading or 
>any other mundane tool that is so familiar that it passes unremarked in 
>society?   But.. This raises another question. Just how common is sorcery 
>on Tekumel?  Does it scare the peasants?  I assume that the educated man 
>who has been to a temple school and toyed with the basics has no worries 
>about the idea of magic but may worry about the practice if it is on 
>him. 

Magic is prevalent enough that illusionists and minor sorcerers can make a 
Kaitar or two showing off giant Shen or flaming-eyed Serudla at village fairs. 
People know about sorcery, but it is not common enough -- and most folk are not 
wealthy enough -- to afford revivification spells, high-level healing spells, 
etc. Hence, the continued need for physicians -- and funeral directors from the 
Temple of Lord Belkhanu! People know about sorcery, they SEE sorcery performed 
(just as I can watch a stage magician), and sometimes if they are lucky they can
benefit from sorcery -- but it is not so common as to make other endeavours and 
skills useless. 

>Oh well. - Time to return to my lessons on the lesser demons of the 10th 
>plane of Our Blue Lord.
 
A goodly way to pass the time.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//25
[Moderator's Note:  One of our illustrious list members, who shall   ]
[        	    go unnamed for now, sent this message full of    ]
[		    some light hearted jests. :)                     ]

Q. How many priests of Ksarul just it take to change a lightbulb?

A. I'm sorry but that is on a need to know basis only.
 ----------
Q. How many priests of Wuru does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. None, they'd rather stay in the dark.
 ----------
Q. How many priests of Hnalla does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. Bulb?  But the Supernal Lord of all is illumination enough!
 ----------
Q. How many Tinaliya does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. Well that depends on a number of factors:- the height of said bulb, the
maximum number of participents allowed, whether another illumination
device is available and time period allowed for completion of the task.
Of course the physical transmutation of matter into another form is a
serious question and one that can only be answered within the appropiate
forum.  The very question itself is ambiguous and logically requires further
clarification before a suitable response can be issued. etc. etc...
 -----------
Q. How many Livyani does it take to change a lightbulb?

Report your sinful thoughts to the temple at once! *coughVrunebcough*
 -----------
Q. How many Militarists does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. Well if we go for a full frontal assualt I rekon two cohorts, tops.
Two cohorts! Cha!  Give me just one cohort and I will lure it into
broken ground and employ the embrace of Nayari to envelop the enemy.
Ha! You speak like a brainless Chlen, you no nothing of the changing of 
bulbs!
Brainless Chlen eh?  You will pay for that remark with blood you Nakome 
scum!
*the sound of a Duel ensues*
 -----------
Q. How many Demonologists does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. First I will need a set of pre-pubescent triplets prefarably female.
Next the eight interlocking squares of Djareva must be inscribed with
precision upon a solid marble base using a mix of bodily fluids from the
dead mother of the triplets.  Next the litany of the summoning of the
energies must be recited in Llyani, after which the three sacrifices
should be disembowled with the ritual Ku'nur knife.  Their innards should
be made to spill into copper bowls and the summoner must drink a portion
of each.... [rest deleted for reasons of sanity]
 ------------
Q. How many Pechani does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. How can we change the bulb when the thieving Salavyani scum have nicked
all the spare ones!
 ------------
Q. How many Salavyani does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. So you need a new bulb eh?  Well it just so happens that a cousin of
mine has recently aquired a good selection, all at very reasonable rates
too.  Care for a deep fried grub?  Now how many do you need....?
 -------------
Q. How many Mu'uglavayani does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. First we retake the Chakas, then we change the bulb.
 -------------
Q. How many Omnipotent Azure Legion interregators does it take to change a

lightbulb?
A. Quiet scum! *smack*  We ask the questions around here, now where were
you on the night of...
 ------------
Q. How many priests of Thumis does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. One to change the bulb, one to take account of Temple stocks, and one
to assess the long term effects this will have on society at large taking
into account historic examples and previous temple records on bulb changing.
 ------------

Do you think lightbulb changing should be one of the tests in the 
Kolumejalim?

Thats enough for now....  :)

-----
[Moderator's note:  Some of them sure tickled my funny bone!

Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//26
[Moderator's Note:  I found I had time to ask a question.  Here is my   ]
[                   contribution.  A boring topic, but maybe someone    ]
[                   else will find it interesting.                      ]
[                   I finished the article on Thumis, and it is on the  ]
[                   ftp site.  Enjoy!                                   ]

>Hi.  As a part time potter, when I am not working on the Blue Room, or
>     the ftp site, or transcribing an article, or gack! working at my 
>     job, I wondered what the pottery of Tekumel looks like.  Maybe
>     I might throw some stuff in Tekumel form.  This may just be a bit
>     too boring for the list, but I would find a description interesting.

There are nearly as many styles as you find on this planet. Red with white slip,
black with white slip, beautifully painted mythological scenes, carved 
mythological scenes and glyphs, giant urns with rows of painted figures, tiny 
humorous pots with animal heads -- all different, from place to place, time to 
time, style to style, und so weiter...

Bey Su potters are currently doing a glossy black style with light blue slip and
red or ochre glyphs. These are done as plates with high rims, four-legged pots, 
ewers with tall necks shaped like Qasu birds or other creatures, round mug-like 
cups with handles shaped like animals' tails, etc. Jakalla is going through an 
Engsvanyali revival phase at the moment: elegant glassware, slender three legged
pots in bird forms painted in brilliant colours, slender jugs with incised 
glyphs and pictures from mythology, flat plates with low rims, painted with 
mythological scenes and "dirty pictures" (the Hrihayal-Dlamelish influences, I 
guess). Tumissa prefers dull reds and ochres, Chene Ho an odd brownish yellow 
clay that is found only near that city, Fasiltum a dull black with bright 
orange-red glyphs of the Flame Lord. I suppose I could write a treatise, but I 
don't have the energy ...!

Maybe you are the one who should write the treatise.
[Moderator's Note:  Ooooh, just what I need, another job!  ;)         ]

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//27
[Moderator's Note:  Bob Dushay questions about clanhouses.  Professor ]
[                   Barker replies.                                   ]

Dear Bob:

>In attempting to develop the Clan of the White Crystal in Jakalla,
>I have run into trouble.  Surely the Clan of the White Crystal is
>large and powerful in Jakalla, so much so that I cannot imagine all
>or even most of the clan-members residing in the clanhouse.  Would only
>the more wealthy and powerful live there, while the poorer lineages would
>live in more modest accomodations, either inside the city or outside
>of its walls?  Or is the clanhouse closer in size to a modern hotel,
>with suitable accomodations for hundreds of people?

Clanhouses vary. Jakalla, Bey Su,  and Avanthar are very tight for space. Most 
members reside outside these cities in large clanhouses on their agricultural 
lands. Only 40-50 people may actually live in a clanhouse in a city at any one 
time, plus servants, slaves, and hangers-on. Actual lineages may number no more 
than 5-10, while wandering visitors may represent other lineages from other 
cities. The situation is always fluid and full of possibilities.

>   Further, what are the major lineages of the White Crystal clan,
>and how do they relate to one another?  I would think lineages would
>tend to be like cliques inside a clanhouse, and that some lineages
>might not like others. 

This is all true. The lineages within White Crystal are numerous, and I don't 
have a list right here handy. Some are Arsanmra, Charunai, Sankolum, Mrelsa, 
Tenkolu, Tlangtal, Tessuken, Marassu, Tetkuru, Zhotlu'e, Sanuklen, Takolu, 
Khursa, and Tukun.

>It would be like a highschool, where the
>athletes and the "brains" don't get along so well, and relations between
>lineages may be relatively formal and distant.  Or, is it more like
>a family reunion picnic, where lineages are less important than
>personalities, and one's lineage is only important in determining one's
>wealth and influence, but has little impact inside the clanhouse,
>otherwise?

Both. Things can get difficult or easy, depending upon personalities and 
political and economic factors. Each city, each clanhouse, and each particular 
situation is different. In one city two lineages may be political/social allies,
but in the next city they are at each other's throats, due to personality 
clashes or some historical event. A few cases are nation-wide and semi-
permanent, but those are rare.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//28
[Moderator's Note:  Bob Dushay also asked a question on Engsvanyali     ]
[                   period temples.  Professor Barker replies.          ]

>Yet another question from "he who is curious".  What do tombs from
>the Engsvanyali period commonly look like?  Your description of the
>1st Imperium tombs from "The Man of Gold" lead me to assume this is
>the norm for burial architecture (the domes with the stela by it, and a
>shaft under the domes); I would presume that the Engsvanyali norm would
>be based on the Bednalljan, but be more rococo.

Engsvanyali tombs differ rom place to place and period to period -- after all, 
the term "Engsvanyali" covers an epoch aout twice as long as recorded human 
history on earth from ancient Egypt to the present. The so-called "High" Period 
of Engsvanyalu (or Engsvan hla Ganga, as it is alternatively known) found the 
Priestkings building massive colonnades, within which there is a single tall 
stela of polished marble standing high on a platform, inscribed with the titles,
deeds, etc. of the tomb's owner. Somewhere in the neighbourhood is a flne slab 
or series of slabs of very hard stone, underneath which is a tunnel filled with 
carefully interlocking stone blocks. Beneath these, in turn, is a series of 
chambers leading through a maze of tunnels to various false doors, traps, pits, 
etc., and finally to a corridor lined with storerooms for the goods of the 
deceased.  The chief deity of the dead person's faith usually has a shrine along
this corridor or at the end of it, facing in the appropriate direction. Altars, 
religious icons, etc. fill this place, and the remains of ancient sacrifices may
still lie in flat platters amongst these objects. Somewhere here -- or back in 
the labyrinth -- is another series of staircases, doors, false tunnels, and 
traps that lead down to the burial place (or places: sometimes the deceased may 
be buried with his family, relatives, pets, slaves, etc., although the 
Engsvanyali did not practice the custom of slaughtering these people when the 
master died. (The Bednalljans did that.) There are more grave goods here, and 
more devious traps. The Bednalljans thought in terms of great blocks of stone or
pits opening beneathe the feet of tomb robbers, but the Engsvanyali tend to be 
more delicate and tricky: e.g. corridors that turned or tilted, or suddenly 
opened into chambers filled with water or vermin. Tomb robbery in the Age of the
Priestkings was not a healthy profession!

All of the above applies to the wealthiest, of course: the Priestkings, their 
Governors, nobles, and high officials. Middle-class burials consist of flat 
stone or brick trapezoidal pyramids, on whose flat tops stand stelae engraved 
with the titles and deeds of the occupant. A single stone shaft then leads 
straight down to a massive plug of basalt or other hard stone that protects a 
very small chamber in which the deceased lies interred in a simple stone 
sarcophagus. Smaller graves around the perimeter of this chamber may contain 
wives, relatives, etc.

One of the characteristic features of the Engsvanyali tomb builders is their 
dependence upon small, well-cut stones for walls, floors, etc. Some of these are
actually interlocked with carved "keys," rather like a Leggo set. The ancient 
Bednalljans of the First Imperium prefer mighty stone blocks that are often so 
well joined and carved to fit one another that mortar is unnecessary, but the 
Engsvanyali are much more "dainty": trellises and lattices of marble and semi-
precious stones surround the graves of the Excellent Dead, and the sarcophagi of
the Priestkings glow with gems and gold. Those who collect Engsvanyali artwork 
can add further details and describe some of the finer pieces from this long 
epoch.

The graves of the middle and lower classes are usually simple stone or brick 
chambers in one of the great "Cities of the Dead," filled with coffins, crammed 
with simple grave goods, and covered with sand and dirt to keep them hidden from
the inevitable tomb-robber. A grave stone carved with "deeds" (usually 
quotations cribbed from some text) stands well away from the actual tomb itself,
so that the location of the chamber cannot be recognised. Sadly, the tomb 
robbers have come to recognise all of the strategems and ploys, and in many 
cases an experienced thief can glance at a gravestone and point precisely to the
location of the buried tomb below!

Grave goods of the middle classes consist of personal jewellery, pottery filled 
with food and drink for the long journey to the Isles of Teretane, possessions, 
weapons, clothing, and all of the trappings of the deceased's life on Tekumel. 
Mummified dogs, cats, Kuni-birds, and other pets are often "sent along for 
company," and a few coins may be added as well to pay the guides and guardians 
along the Way. These tombs are not rich and will repay only the lowest and 
hungriest tomb-robber.

Engsvanyali tombs consist of a great many styles and varieties, of course, 
ranging from domed chambers with stelae in front, to square blocks of black 
basalt that overlie deep grave pits, to towers on the tops of which the dead are
laid out in terracotta coffins, to narrow, tricky tunnels that wind beneath the 
earth, to tall, thin triangular monuments built over labyrinthine corridors 
leading down and away to secret chambers far below, to -- almost anything. Some 
periods desired to return to the monolithic architecture of the Bednalljan past,
of course, and only an expert in the iconography of these periods can tell which
is Bednalljan and which is later Engsvanyali. Near the end of the Priestkings' 
period, just before the sinking of Ganga, it also seems that there was some sort
of societal collapse. Tomb architecture suffered the same fate as civil and 
military building: poorly constructed edifices, flamboyant, bizarre, and rococco
art styles, hasty burials, corrupted texts, and badly copied religious scenes 
fill the crowded necropoli, and the fine-cut stones of the Great Period give way
to shoddy stucco, mortar, and brick. Most tomb robbers simply ignore such 
graves.

Without knowing just which city, which period, and which particular necropolis 
site is wanted, it is hard to be more precise than this.

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

[Moderator's Note:  Another list member added a joke to the other list.  ]
[Q.  How many Ahoggya does it take to screw in a lightbulb?              ]
[A.  Eight. It takes eight Ahoggya for any form of screwing....          ]


//29
[Moderator's Note:  Phil McGregor contributes this article discussing ]
[                   Chlen Hide.  It has numerous questions, but I am  ]
[                   posting it to the list dircectly, since there is  ]
[                   also much discussion within it.  I will also send ]
[                   it to the Professor for comment.  Message 31 will ]
[                   have the Professor's response.                    ]

The Technology of Chlen Hide

I've always had a great interest in the way in which technology has
developed historically and have been interested in the technological
background of the peoples of Tekumel as a result. Since the
campaign I run (on and off) is *extremely* variant, this is of considerable
importance to what can be done gamewise as well. In any case, the
needs of the background caused me to consider that ubiquitous material
of the Five Empires, Chlen Hide.

Given that it can be peeled from the great Chlen without killing them
and then, by dint of secret arts known only to the great tanning clans,
turned into anything from semi-flexible armour to rigid swords and
other blades with the strength equivalent of bronze ... how can this
be? There is, as far as I aware, no naturally occurring material that
can fill this bill here and now, so what's the case with Tekumel?

I don't know for sure, but I have a possible solution. It's quite simple
and elegant, too ... Chlen hide is a monomer base for a polymer (i.e.
it's a chemical precursor to a *plastic*!). The way I see it, there are
two possibilities --

* The pre-collapse civilisation preferred to use biotechnology for the
production of chemical raw materials ... and engineered the Chlen
into a creature that naturally produced monomers in its thick hide to
reduce demand for petrochemical products. This seems inherently
unlikely, as the use of an animal base for such a genetic engineering
project would seem obviously less efficient than using a plant base.
The only possibility is that the designers found that the use of a plant
based technique was not feasible for economic or other reasons.

* The immediate post-collapse technicians were desperately searching
for a way to provide plastic materials for a civilisation that had almost
completely depleted economically recoverable petroleum (or which could,
in its shattered state, not create the industry needed to create the plant
required for drilling and refining crude oil ... Tekumel was, after all, a
pleasure world!). Either way, it seems that it is highly likely that a
genetically engineered plant would be some sort of hybrid that would
require ongoing technology to create each generation and which would,
therefore, be unlikely to survive in the wild without such support. *Animals*,
on the other hand, would be more likely to do so, I suspect.

So, how do they treat the Chlen hide to transform it? Well, I suspect for
a start that they do *not* treat it in the way that the inventors intended it
to be treated. They would have been, perforce (cultural blinkers and all
that) looking at "low tech" solutions that, with the complete collapse of
their technology, became *high* tech solutions ... i.e. they may have been
looking at quite primitive *20th Century* technology for the processing of
the hides, and this is, unfortunately beyond the capabilities of the here
and now locals.

I would suspect that the hides were intended to be chopped up into pellet
sized pieces for processing into thermoplastic materials (something like
PVC, ABS, PETE, or PETN) and used there for castings, mouldings,
or even spun thread.

How do the locals actually treat it? I suspect that they simply cut it into
shape and then use a combination of chemical processing, heat, and,
perhaps, such "pressure" as they can manage, to polymerize the material.
Armour would, probably, be polymerized fully only in the outer layers
and still only partially or completely unpolymerized internally, making
it more flexible and mouldable. Weapons and the like would be more
comprehensively treated to ensure that they are completely polymerized
right through for strength, even though retaining some flexibility. The
precision construction required for a spinneret for making plastic thread
(a la nylon) is certainly completely beyond the capacity of the locals.

What is the practical effect of this revelation? Well, nothing really for
most EPT/Tekumel GMs and Players (in *my* campaign, it's a different
matter!), it's just an interesting speculation. Any comments or ideas?

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu


//30
[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker's response to Phil's interesting ]
[                   Chlen hide article.  Well, I goofed twice.  The   ]
[                   Last message was 29, I didn't put it in the title.]
[                   The reply from the Professor, this article, is 30,]
[                   not 31.   Sorry!                                  ]

>The Technology of Chlen Hide

>I've always had a great interest in the way in which technology has
>developed historically and have been interested in the technological
>background of the peoples of Tekumel as a result. Since the
>campaign I run (on and off) is *extremely* variant, this is of considerable
>importance to what can be done gamewise as well. In any case, the
>needs of the background caused me to consider that ubiquitous material
>of the Five Empires, Chlen Hide.
> 
>Given that it can be peeled from the great Chlen without killing them
>and then, by dint of secret arts known only to the great tanning clans,
>turned into anything from semi-flexible armour to rigid swords and
>ther blades with the strength equivalent of bronze ... how can this
>be? There is, as far as I aware, no naturally occurring material that
>can fill this bill here and now, so what's the case with Tekumel?

I suppose the real case is that I wanted soemthing that would add to the 
"alienness" of Tekumel. "Steel" and "enchanted steel" were already ho-hum, after
western fantasy (knights and castles and all that) had used them. In the game, 
of course, there are many "fantastic" things, substances, creatures, and other 
features that make Tekumel interesting and unique. One can always put any one of
them under the magnifying glass, and until humankind gets out into space 
andfinds them -- and Tekumel -- they will alwyas remain just elements of 
"fantasy."

>I don't know for sure, but I have a possible solution.

Thank you! I am not enough of a chemist or scientist to devise such elegant 
solutions myself. 

>It's quite simple
>and elegant, too ... Chlen hide is a monomer base for a polymer (i.e.
>it's a chemical precursor to a *plastic*!). The way I see it, there are
>two possibilities --
> 
>* The pre-collapse civilisation preferred to use biotechnology for the
>production of chemical raw materials ... and engineered the Chlen
>into a creature that naturally produced monomers in its thick hide to
>reduce demand for petrochemical products. This seems inherently
>unlikely, as the use of an animal base for such a genetic engineering
>project would seem obviously less efficient than using a plant base.
>The only possibility is that the designers found that the use of a plant
>based technique was not feasible for economic or other reasons.

Could be. I lack the knowledge either of technology or of the times before the 
Time of Darkness, to comment. Is it not equally possible that the Chlen were 
just a lucky find: an animal that possessed this unique quality? Other animals 
from the Pe Choi worlds lack the ability to produce Chlen-hide or anything like 
it, just as most Terran species lack the ability to produce certain poisons.

>* The immediate post-collapse technicians were desperately searching
>for a way to provide plastic materials for a civilisation that had almost
>completely depleted economically recoverable petroleum (or which could,
>in its shattered state, not create the industry needed to create the plant
>required for drilling and refining crude oil ... Tekumel was, after all, a
>pleasure world!). Either way, it seems that it is highly likely that a
>genetically engineered plant would be some sort of hybrid that would
>require ongoing technology to create each generation and which would,
>therefore, be unlikely to survive in the wild without such support.

Excellent idea! 

>*Animals*,
>on the other hand, would be more likely to do so, I suspect.

>So, how do they treat the Chlen hide to transform it? Well, I suspect for
>a start that they do *not* treat it in the way that the inventors intended it
>to be treated. They would have been, perforce (cultural blinkers and all
>that) looking at "low tech" solutions that, with the complete collapse of
>their technology, became *high* tech solutions ... i.e. they may have been
>looking at quite primitive *20th Century* technology for the processing of
>the hides, and this is, unfortunately beyond the capabilities of the here
>and now locals.

Right. Seems fair. The Latter Times swiftly lost a lot of technology, while 
other parts were preserved, sheerly by accident or because the owners of said 
technology went to extraordinary lengths to maintain it. 

>I would suspect that the hides were intended to be chopped up into pellet
>sized pieces for processing into thermoplastic materials (something like
>PVC, ABS, PETE, or PETN) and used there for castings, mouldings,
>or even spun thread.

This is what is still done with scraps of Chlen-hide used for chain-mail rings, 
sewn-on discs on various types of armoured coats, etc. Thread, to my knowledge, 
is not possible -- at least not any more.
> 
>How do the locals actually treat it? I suspect that they simply cut it into
>shape and then use a combination of chemical processing, heat, and,
>perhaps, such "pressure" as they can manage, to polymerize the material.
>Armour would, probably, be polymerized fully only in the outer layers
>and still only partially or completely unpolymerized internally, making
>it more flexible and mouldable. Weapons and the like would be more
>comprehensively treated to ensure that they are completely polymerized
>right through for strength, even though retaining some flexibility. The
>precision construction required for a spinneret for making plastic thread
>(a la nylon) is certainly completely beyond the capacity of the locals.

You have described it almost exactly. The "baths" in which they soak the hide 
differ in the amount and type of chemicals used, and the methods of then 
cutting, moulding, and finishing each piece differ, too. These tanneries are 
usually far outside each city because of the smells and pollution. The secrets 
of production are not really "deep" secrets: almost any determined person can 
learnthem. But the Chlen-tanning trade is limited to a few special clans, which 
are not considered especially "honourable." Hence, most Tsolyani would think it 
beneath themselves to learn or experiment with these techniques.

>What is the practical effect of this revelation? Well, nothing really for
>most EPT/Tekumel GMs and Players (in *my* campaign, it's a different
>matter!), it's just an interesting speculation. Any comments or ideas?

Thanks for the input. I am not chemist or scientist enough to answer such 
questions. It reminds me of one time in Benares when I was passing a dye-works, 
and all the beautiful silks for saris were hanging out on lines. I asked an 
Indian friend about the dyes used -- and got back a lengthy and totally 
unintelligible disquisition that left me dithering! On Tekumel, I have to depend
on others to help with features that are quite beyond me: e.g. astronomy (of 
which I frankly know little), dyes, metalworking, agriculture, etc. etc  I 
am rather like a tourist who passes by, sees, is interested, but cannot possibly
understand the technology and science behind what he sees. I recall one time a 
fellow sent me an 80-page questionnaire about Tekumelani plants: what are their 
growing times, how do they seed, do they have fruit or flowers, and many, many 
technical questions! I had to send it back with a plea that HE should devote 
some time to it and send it back to me so that I could put my "seal of approval"
on it and add it to the compendium of "authentic" Tekumel material. Never heard 
from him again! If people out there want to try their hands at "science for 
Tekumel," please go right ahead. Please just try not to change the observable 
features of the planet, its societies, or its economic structure! If it's 
reasnable and usable, perhaps it can be fitted into the Larger Picture.

[Moderator's Note:  Well, here is an open invitation to make your creation ]
[                   part of the "real" Tekumel.  

-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu

